Subliminal Talk

(11-12-2016, 06:37 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 06:03 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 05:52 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 05:18 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 05:06 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]How important do you think positive reinforcement is, because I don't think anyone can get very far without it.

And by high value I don't just mean by women, by society as a whole.

Positive reinforcement is important depending on how well you have mastered your understanding of where your value actually comes from.

If your value pretends to come from within (internal), but really comes from what others say (external) then sure, positive reinforcement will be important and necessary.

If your value comes entirely from within, because it is your genuine and complete internal reality, then positive reinforcement externally is unnecessary. It is because it is. Mountains don't need valleys to remind them of or validate who and what they are.

I think I might have to disagree with you on this. Human beings aren't mountains, we're social creatures more than anything, we can't resist that fact anymore than we can resist wanting to ****, eat or sleep.

Everyone who thinks they're high value in the real world had their self esteem instilled and reinforced by the people around them, whether that's their family or strangers. How can you duplicate that and then maintain it without positive reinforcement? Even the guys here who are listening to DMSI day and night are constantly looking for positive reinforcement in the real world.

There's a book called the outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, his argument is that every successful person is where they are because of where they came from, what's socially acceptable where they came from and the values and attitudes they were raised on. He's studied many successful people (who he highlights in his book) and shows that there's always some kind of momentum to someone's success, they were encouraged in some way as kids or they stumbled upon something they spent years practising on and became masters at it, there's always momentum.

Right now I feel like these subs are drugs, something to take the edge off but they aren't really life-changing, the promise of these subs are life changing, but if I'm being honest with myself I haven't really achieved life-changing results, like being able to live my dream life, or take care of problems stemming from family that I've been dealing with all my life.

I think you should take another look at outliers, there's a very important wisdom in it.

You lost me the moment you said "Outliers". That book is based on logical fallacy after logical fallacy. It is, in my opinion, garbage thinking. You need to really understand critical thinking and understand a lot of variables that are and are not discussed in the book to see that, but it boils down to a faulty argument based on logical fallacies based on incomplete information and understanding. Convincing or not, that's what it is.

As for whether to subs are life changing, what has that got to do with the original point? And I would say a lot of people will disagree with you that they are not really life changing. But whatever, that's not the point of the post you replied to anyway.

If you have never seen something, that does not make it fictional. If you don't understand how something could work, it does not become impossible. So what I said is currently outside your reality, and you disagree, but that doesn't make it less true. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and a lot of people don't. That's life. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Can you explain exactly what's illogical about it? It's really easy to say somethings illogical without explaining where you're coming from.

I can't exactly make an argument without going through and writing a book in response. It was a very complex argument for, and the argument against is at least as complex.

Quote:Well I'm sorry if I offended you, I'm just giving honest feedback and hoping you could meet half way logically. Actually you getting upset is just proving my point. We as humans need positive feedback, from whoever can give it.

You haven't offended me, I'm just frustrated that I cannot actually be more specific and in depth with my response because I am testing MIR and because it is too complex an answer to give here. It has nothing to do with offense. And then of course that means it;s not proving your point. It is entirely possible to be your own source of positive feedback.

Believe me, if I wasn't my own source of positive feedback, I would not be able to withstand the barrage of criticism I get daily for my work, while working to create sounds that change the world in ways that are currently thought to be impossible. My feedback comes from my knowing factually what I know, even if I cannot express it sufficiently to persuade others without making the programs to do that for me.

My point is that you do not need to derive your value from what anyone else says, and if your value is determined internally, the result is that it becomes an external reality as well. This is where the phrase, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win" comes from.

Quote:Nobody is a monk in the real world.

Except real world monks.

Quote:I'm not saying that the subs aren't valuable or that they don't have potential, I'm just saying that right now I can't really see that they're life-changing, can they turn a loser into a playboy, or an average joe into a millionaire? That remains to be seen... that's all. I'm just being honest.

There's a lot more to "life changing" that turning a loser into a playboy millionaire. You're ignoring a whole lot by assuming that.

But that happens, with and without "self help".

There is a reason we don't allow just anyone to buy BAMM. It's because the program can be resisted, and because most people would buy it, sit on their couch, smoke weed, eat Cheetos and play World of Tanks and then cry when it didn't magically make them a millionaire. Becoming a millionaire happens one of two ways: Destiny, or work.Most of us are not destined for it. Most of us are not destined against having it happen, either; so for those people who are in between those two extremes, they can achieve it, but it takes work. And usually a lot of it. Which most people don't want to do.

That's why it's aimed at a 1 to 8 year usage time frame. That's why we don't let just anyone buy it.

Nothing changes but by the change of the mind first. That's where subliminals come in. And they are very life changing. But then not all such changes are quick, binary or obvious. Subs have changed my life, though. From pathetic doormat to self made man, and eventually self made millionaire and then billionaire too, if I want it. That's pretty life changing. And that's only one person, looking at one thing.

I'm not defensive or taking offense. I'm used to dealing with criticism. (That's another "life change" that happened because of subliminals, by the way.) The original argument was that value is internal at it's core, and that is true. No matter how beautiful you are, if you believe you are worthless, you will manifest that reality. Plenty of beauty queens have ended up shriveled up crack addicts in the alley because of exactly that.

Shannon said:

"What if just by running a subliminal, you could cause the people you find sexually attractive to be unable to stop having pornographic sexual fantasies about you?"

1) How can I best ask this? Am I correct to assume that the fantasies would be including the user and the affected involved in such acts simultaneously with each other?

2) Also in addition to it including the usual things that most people might fantasize about, how about it also including the affected's favorite secret fetishes? (Kind of like putting extra toppings on an already awesome sundae! Or rocket fuel in your favorite sports car.)

3) As well as them fantasizing about what the user would want to do, and the affected enjoying that and wanting it too?

(11-12-2016, 07:36 PM)Steven Wrote: [ -> ]Shannon said:

"What if just by running a subliminal, you could cause the people you find sexually attractive to be unable to stop having pornographic sexual fantasies about you?"

1) How can I best ask this? Am I correct to assume that the fantasies would be including the user and the affected involved in such acts simultaneously with each other?

No, I had plans for the fantasies to be about the affected and certain rare species of Italian bolete mushrooms. Of course, Steve. The goal of the fantasies is to get them thinking about, wanting, normalizing and looking forward to sex with the user.

Quote:2) Also in addition to it including the usual things that most people might fantasize about, how about it also including the affected's favorite secret fetishes? (Kind of like putting extra toppings on an already awesome sundae! Or rocket fuel in your favorite sports car.)

I'm not trying to direct their fantasies except to make them involve the user and the affected, be positive and enjoyable, and involve sex between them and the user.

Quote:3) As well as them fantasizing about what the user would want to do, and the affected enjoying that and wanting it too?

They will fantasize about whatever they find arousing. Not the user. The goal is to use as little effort and energy as possible to achieve the goal. We have a lot of things that need to be powered.

(11-12-2016, 07:29 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 06:37 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 06:03 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 05:52 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 05:18 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]Positive reinforcement is important depending on how well you have mastered your understanding of where your value actually comes from.

If your value pretends to come from within (internal), but really comes from what others say (external) then sure, positive reinforcement will be important and necessary.

If your value comes entirely from within, because it is your genuine and complete internal reality, then positive reinforcement externally is unnecessary. It is because it is. Mountains don't need valleys to remind them of or validate who and what they are.

I think I might have to disagree with you on this. Human beings aren't mountains, we're social creatures more than anything, we can't resist that fact anymore than we can resist wanting to ****, eat or sleep.

Everyone who thinks they're high value in the real world had their self esteem instilled and reinforced by the people around them, whether that's their family or strangers. How can you duplicate that and then maintain it without positive reinforcement? Even the guys here who are listening to DMSI day and night are constantly looking for positive reinforcement in the real world.

There's a book called the outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, his argument is that every successful person is where they are because of where they came from, what's socially acceptable where they came from and the values and attitudes they were raised on. He's studied many successful people (who he highlights in his book) and shows that there's always some kind of momentum to someone's success, they were encouraged in some way as kids or they stumbled upon something they spent years practising on and became masters at it, there's always momentum.

Right now I feel like these subs are drugs, something to take the edge off but they aren't really life-changing, the promise of these subs are life changing, but if I'm being honest with myself I haven't really achieved life-changing results, like being able to live my dream life, or take care of problems stemming from family that I've been dealing with all my life.

I think you should take another look at outliers, there's a very important wisdom in it.

You lost me the moment you said "Outliers". That book is based on logical fallacy after logical fallacy. It is, in my opinion, garbage thinking. You need to really understand critical thinking and understand a lot of variables that are and are not discussed in the book to see that, but it boils down to a faulty argument based on logical fallacies based on incomplete information and understanding. Convincing or not, that's what it is.

As for whether to subs are life changing, what has that got to do with the original point? And I would say a lot of people will disagree with you that they are not really life changing. But whatever, that's not the point of the post you replied to anyway.

If you have never seen something, that does not make it fictional. If you don't understand how something could work, it does not become impossible. So what I said is currently outside your reality, and you disagree, but that doesn't make it less true. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and a lot of people don't. That's life. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Can you explain exactly what's illogical about it? It's really easy to say somethings illogical without explaining where you're coming from.

I can't exactly make an argument without going through and writing a book in response. It was a very complex argument for, and the argument against is at least as complex.

Quote:Well I'm sorry if I offended you, I'm just giving honest feedback and hoping you could meet half way logically. Actually you getting upset is just proving my point. We as humans need positive feedback, from whoever can give it.

You haven't offended me, I'm just frustrated that I cannot actually be more specific and in depth with my response because I am testing MIR and because it is too complex an answer to give here. It has nothing to do with offense. And then of course that means it;s not proving your point. It is entirely possible to be your own source of positive feedback.

Believe me, if I wasn't my own source of positive feedback, I would not be able to withstand the barrage of criticism I get daily for my work, while working to create sounds that change the world in ways that are currently thought to be impossible. My feedback comes from my knowing factually what I know, even if I cannot express it sufficiently to persuade others without making the programs to do that for me.

My point is that you do not need to derive your value from what anyone else says, and if your value is determined internally, the result is that it becomes an external reality as well. This is where the phrase, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win" comes from.

Quote:Nobody is a monk in the real world.

Except real world monks.

Quote:I'm not saying that the subs aren't valuable or that they don't have potential, I'm just saying that right now I can't really see that they're life-changing, can they turn a loser into a playboy, or an average joe into a millionaire? That remains to be seen... that's all. I'm just being honest.

There's a lot more to "life changing" that turning a loser into a playboy millionaire. You're ignoring a whole lot by assuming that.

But that happens, with and without "self help".

There is a reason we don't allow just anyone to buy BAMM. It's because the program can be resisted, and because most people would buy it, sit on their couch, smoke weed, eat Cheetos and play World of Tanks and then cry when it didn't magically make them a millionaire. Becoming a millionaire happens one of two ways: Destiny, or work.Most of us are not destined for it. Most of us are not destined against having it happen, either; so for those people who are in between those two extremes, they can achieve it, but it takes work. And usually a lot of it. Which most people don't want to do.

That's why it's aimed at a 1 to 8 year usage time frame. That's why we don't let just anyone buy it.

Nothing changes but by the change of the mind first. That's where subliminals come in. And they are very life changing. But then not all such changes are quick, binary or obvious. Subs have changed my life, though. From pathetic doormat to self made man, and eventually self made millionaire and then billionaire too, if I want it. That's pretty life changing. And that's only one person, looking at one thing.

I'm not defensive or taking offense. I'm used to dealing with criticism. (That's another "life change" that happened because of subliminals, by the way.) The original argument was that value is internal at it's core, and that is true. No matter how beautiful you are, if you believe you are worthless, you will manifest that reality. Plenty of beauty queens have ended up shriveled up crack addicts in the alley because of exactly that.

So, (and I'm glad you didn't take offense) what happens when there is a baby who is born self-validating (if that's possible) and is met with parents that neglect, degrade or criticize them. Do they just not care and continue self validating?

I'm not saying that there aren't people who don't deal with criticism and succeed regardless, I'm saying that they usually have some source of confidence, whether it's their upbringing or someone specific that encourages them.

I maintain, I don't think it's possible for someone to be completely self validating, nobody is that powerful and not needing.

Maybe a monk does, but a monk doesn't know much in terms of what this world has to offer.

(11-12-2016, 10:56 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 07:29 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 06:37 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 06:03 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 05:52 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I think I might have to disagree with you on this. Human beings aren't mountains, we're social creatures more than anything, we can't resist that fact anymore than we can resist wanting to ****, eat or sleep.

Everyone who thinks they're high value in the real world had their self esteem instilled and reinforced by the people around them, whether that's their family or strangers. How can you duplicate that and then maintain it without positive reinforcement? Even the guys here who are listening to DMSI day and night are constantly looking for positive reinforcement in the real world.

There's a book called the outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, his argument is that every successful person is where they are because of where they came from, what's socially acceptable where they came from and the values and attitudes they were raised on. He's studied many successful people (who he highlights in his book) and shows that there's always some kind of momentum to someone's success, they were encouraged in some way as kids or they stumbled upon something they spent years practising on and became masters at it, there's always momentum.

Right now I feel like these subs are drugs, something to take the edge off but they aren't really life-changing, the promise of these subs are life changing, but if I'm being honest with myself I haven't really achieved life-changing results, like being able to live my dream life, or take care of problems stemming from family that I've been dealing with all my life.

I think you should take another look at outliers, there's a very important wisdom in it.

You lost me the moment you said "Outliers". That book is based on logical fallacy after logical fallacy. It is, in my opinion, garbage thinking. You need to really understand critical thinking and understand a lot of variables that are and are not discussed in the book to see that, but it boils down to a faulty argument based on logical fallacies based on incomplete information and understanding. Convincing or not, that's what it is.

As for whether to subs are life changing, what has that got to do with the original point? And I would say a lot of people will disagree with you that they are not really life changing. But whatever, that's not the point of the post you replied to anyway.

If you have never seen something, that does not make it fictional. If you don't understand how something could work, it does not become impossible. So what I said is currently outside your reality, and you disagree, but that doesn't make it less true. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and a lot of people don't. That's life. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Can you explain exactly what's illogical about it? It's really easy to say somethings illogical without explaining where you're coming from.

I can't exactly make an argument without going through and writing a book in response. It was a very complex argument for, and the argument against is at least as complex.

Quote:Well I'm sorry if I offended you, I'm just giving honest feedback and hoping you could meet half way logically. Actually you getting upset is just proving my point. We as humans need positive feedback, from whoever can give it.

You haven't offended me, I'm just frustrated that I cannot actually be more specific and in depth with my response because I am testing MIR and because it is too complex an answer to give here. It has nothing to do with offense. And then of course that means it;s not proving your point. It is entirely possible to be your own source of positive feedback.

Believe me, if I wasn't my own source of positive feedback, I would not be able to withstand the barrage of criticism I get daily for my work, while working to create sounds that change the world in ways that are currently thought to be impossible. My feedback comes from my knowing factually what I know, even if I cannot express it sufficiently to persuade others without making the programs to do that for me.

My point is that you do not need to derive your value from what anyone else says, and if your value is determined internally, the result is that it becomes an external reality as well. This is where the phrase, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win" comes from.

Quote:Nobody is a monk in the real world.

Except real world monks.

Quote:I'm not saying that the subs aren't valuable or that they don't have potential, I'm just saying that right now I can't really see that they're life-changing, can they turn a loser into a playboy, or an average joe into a millionaire? That remains to be seen... that's all. I'm just being honest.

There's a lot more to "life changing" that turning a loser into a playboy millionaire. You're ignoring a whole lot by assuming that.

But that happens, with and without "self help".

There is a reason we don't allow just anyone to buy BAMM. It's because the program can be resisted, and because most people would buy it, sit on their couch, smoke weed, eat Cheetos and play World of Tanks and then cry when it didn't magically make them a millionaire. Becoming a millionaire happens one of two ways: Destiny, or work.Most of us are not destined for it. Most of us are not destined against having it happen, either; so for those people who are in between those two extremes, they can achieve it, but it takes work. And usually a lot of it. Which most people don't want to do.

That's why it's aimed at a 1 to 8 year usage time frame. That's why we don't let just anyone buy it.

Nothing changes but by the change of the mind first. That's where subliminals come in. And they are very life changing. But then not all such changes are quick, binary or obvious. Subs have changed my life, though. From pathetic doormat to self made man, and eventually self made millionaire and then billionaire too, if I want it. That's pretty life changing. And that's only one person, looking at one thing.

I'm not defensive or taking offense. I'm used to dealing with criticism. (That's another "life change" that happened because of subliminals, by the way.) The original argument was that value is internal at it's core, and that is true. No matter how beautiful you are, if you believe you are worthless, you will manifest that reality. Plenty of beauty queens have ended up shriveled up crack addicts in the alley because of exactly that.

So, (and I'm glad you didn't take offense) what happens when there is a baby who is born self-validating (if that's possible) and is met with parents that neglect, degrade or criticize them. Do they just not care and continue self validating?

It is extremely rare for someone to be born self validating. It almost always comes from the realization and understanding that seeking validation from outside yourself is a failing proposition. But, in such a case, the child will simply disregard what the criticisors say and do, understanding that it is done out of ignorance and therefore is invalid as a source of value assessment for the self, regardless. Most adults never achieve that level of self awareness or wisdom, never mind children.

Quote:I'm not saying that there aren't people who don't deal with criticism and succeed regardless, I'm saying that they usually have some source of confidence, whether it's their upbringing or someone specific that encourages them.

It is almost always their past and their understanding from their experiences what is what when it comes to their personal value. I used to rely on others for my point of view of myself and my self evaluation. Now, through my experiences and my understanding, I do not. I base my value on my own assessments, and the rest are welcome to disagree all they like. It is immaterial because they are not my source of self validation or valuation.

Quote:I maintain, I don't think it's possible for someone to be completely self validating, nobody is that powerful and not needing.

Maybe a monk does, but a monk doesn't know much in terms of what this world has to offer.

Again, because you don't think it is possible holds no water in whether or not it actually is. And you are seriously misunderstanding monks.

If you want to disagree with me, then by all means, feel free.

I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

What's your definition of "cracking" in this instance?

As far as groups...there have been many groups in history with extreme viewpoints. Cults are notorious for this because they are able to use the power of the group (among other things like perhaps fear) to influence individuals. That said, we also know that there have been and continue to be people who were/are embedded in those groups who have broken away and began to form their own conclusions based off their personal experiences and/or information that they've gathered. Not necessarily "cults" either, it could be political groups, certain ideologies, etc. Its human nature to go along with the group yet we see repeatedly people can outright resist and even overcome that basic tenet of human nature.

One of the defining characteristics of successful people is in their ability to consistently (although perhaps not always) resist negativity and nay-saying from others and then eventually progressing. Often times, overcoming human nature is a part of that. In Shannon's case he deals with many people (including people on this forum) who tell him on a consistent basis that what he's doing is crazy/impossible/stupid/trash/waste-of-time/etc yet here he is and here we are. Now given sufficient mental/phsyical/social forces we could force Shannon to indeed crack (if by cracking you mean quitting) which is why torture is effective lol. But are we discussing "cracking" in absolute terms or "cracking" in terms of what the average everyday person goes through? If it's the former, then yes, I believe almost everyone will crack if by cracking you mean giving up at some point due to extreme methods. If it's the latter, then I'd simply say a good number will crack (once again, "crack" in this case meaning give up) and a number of them won't.

I think the main point here is that it's hard for many people to truly imagine living their life without needing/requiring external validation and positive reinforcement from others. People who have such a reality are in the overwhelming minority when compared to everyone else. It's also why many people are on this site to reach such a level because we've come to understand that relying/needing external validation leads to so much BS as CV just explained.

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

Errr...then I would change the people I'm around and find more like minded friends.

Regarding my friends, this has happened to me and I simply made the decision to move away from those people i once resonated with and connect with people who share similar goals (speaking just of the friends side of this situation).

Also, strong spirited people generally don't change their behavior to suit those around them. Being who they are naturally helps them attract those they get along with anyway. Otherwise they're just pandering to people they may not want to be around. It really doesn't make sense that a strong assertive person would change their ways to suit the opinions of others. That's what makes them strong and assertive; they are unwilling to adjust themselves to work within a level of behavior that they disagree with. Weak spirited people, maybe. Strong spirited? Nope.

One personal example I'll share is my own family. There isn't a trace of entrepreneurial ambition that i can find aside from myself, and it's always rough talking to them about any of my stuff. But I have somehow kept my course despite a wave of criticism and constant judgement.

This wasn't being resistant to their judgements once or twice...but for decades, and from multiple family members who are 10000% convinced they are right and i am wrong. But i know who i am and what i want, so they can't touch that. They aren't going to sway my core values since they're so off track from where I'm at.

If your last sentence was really true I would have given in and slogged away at a job like what they keep hammering at me, and I'd be in the same boat they are. But that hasn't happened. Despite their best efforts, I have yet to 'crack'

(11-13-2016, 12:46 AM)K-Train Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

What's your definition of "cracking" in this instance?

As far as groups...there have been many groups in history with extreme viewpoints. Cults are notorious for this because they are able to use the power of the group (among other things like perhaps fear) to influence individuals. That said, we also know that there have been and continue to be people who were/are embedded in those groups who have broken away and began to form their own conclusions based off their personal experiences and/or information that they've gathered. Not necessarily "cults" either, it could be political groups, certain ideologies, etc. Its human nature to go along with the group yet we see repeatedly people can outright resist and even overcome that basic tenet of human nature.

One of the defining characteristics of successful people is in their ability to consistently (although perhaps not always) resist negativity and nay-saying from others and then eventually progressing. Often times, overcoming human nature is a part of that. In Shannon's case he deals with many people (including people on this forum) who tell him on a consistent basis that what he's doing is crazy/impossible/stupid/trash/waste-of-time/etc yet here he is and here we are. Now given sufficient mental/phsyical/social forces we could force Shannon to indeed crack (if by cracking you mean quitting) which is why torture is effective lol. But are we discussing "cracking" in absolute terms or "cracking" in terms of what the average everyday person goes through? If it's the former, then yes, I believe almost everyone will crack if by cracking you mean giving up at some point due to extreme methods. If it's the latter, then I'd simply say a good number will crack (once again, "crack" in this case meaning give up) and a number of them won't.

I think the main point here is that it's hard for many people to truly imagine living their life without needing/requiring external validation and positive reinforcement from others. People who have such a reality are in the overwhelming minority when compared to everyone else. It's also why many people are on this site to reach such a level because we've come to understand that relying/needing external validation leads to so much BS as CV just explained.

Well I can't argue with that, I've never seen or experienced living without external validation of some sort, I can only doubt or take your word for it.

Sounds a lot like some kind of monk though. Even psychopaths who are born completely devoid of social emotions still have egos and will rely on external validation.

I very very highly doubt that someone can live their life without being effected by external validation. Monks have to isolate themselves from the world and be satisfied with next to nothing to achieve stuff like that, even enlightened gurus (in Hindu culture) still care to an extent.

(11-13-2016, 01:23 AM)heavysm Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

Errr...then I would change the people I'm around and find more like minded friends.

Regarding my friends, this has happened to me and I simply made the decision to move away from those people i once resonated with and connect with people who share similar goals (speaking just of the friends side of this situation).

Also, strong spirited people generally don't change their behavior to suit those around them. Being who they are naturally helps them attract those they get along with anyway. Otherwise they're just pandering to people they may not want to be around. It really doesn't make sense that a strong assertive person would change their ways to suit the opinions of others. That's what makes them strong and assertive; they are unwilling to adjust themselves to work within a level of behavior that they disagree with. Weak spirited people, maybe. Strong spirited? Nope.

One personal example I'll share is my own family. There isn't a trace of entrepreneurial ambition that i can find aside from myself, and it's always rough talking to them about any of my stuff. But I have somehow kept my course despite a wave of criticism and constant judgement.

This wasn't being resistant to their judgements once or twice...but for decades, and from multiple family members who are 10000% convinced they are right and i am wrong. But i know who i am and what i want, so they can't touch that. They aren't going to sway my core values since they're so off track from where I'm at.

If your last sentence was really true I would have given in and slogged away at a job like what they keep hammering at me, and I'd be in the same boat they are. But that hasn't happened. Despite their best efforts, I have yet to 'crack'

Well my situation is just like yours lol, I've yet to crack but that's only because I've managed to avoid them. I'd also be lying though, if I said their attitudes and beliefs hasn't effected me, however brief or minor.

Finding friends and acquaintances who share your values is an example of working with human nature, to be honest I'm not sure if those people were around or if someone hadn't inspired you, you'd be able to break free. I know my ability to break free was because of the way I was treated as kid (my family basically treated me like a king), that always stuck with me and I probably wouldn't be who I am today if wasn't for that, maybe in your case it was one person or a group of people who inspired you. But there's always a trace, we aren't so defiant for no reason, we don't think we can do it without an inspiration.

It's unavoidable, external validation not only shapes us as kids, it defines what we think is acceptable and achievable, in more than one area. Going against this is a struggle only few go through, but never fully overcome, even if they become completely successful in their endeavours.

Indeed, most require some form of external validation. I think the real issue is how much external validation is it that you require in order to continue to survive and move forward. A person who almost exclusively relies on external validation in order to feel good about themselves is going to get f*cked in the ass (metaphorically speaking ) because if they need (keyword: need) near constant external validation then they're going to be in serious trouble. So if your argument is everyone needs/requires external validation at some point...then yeah I'd say you have a good argument on your hands.

But again, some of the biggest advancements we've had in history politically, socially, economically, technologically and in terms of sports has come from people who had enough conviction and self validation to persevere through severe droughts of external validation. Jackie Robinson (first African American to play in Major League Baseball) had a metric shit-ton of people providing him with no external validation. Of course he had support from key people (external validation) which no doubt helped him along. But without sufficient internal validation (knowing that he was a great player even if people called him the N-word or whatever) he would have quit like everyone else. You can switch Jackie Robinson around with some other historical figure that had to endure heaps doubters, nay-sayers, and whatever before they got external validation (if ever).

Many people are indeed shaped by external validation absolutely. But I would argue (and I'm sure others would as well) that eventually it becomes necessary for the sake of peace of mind to reduce the amount of external validation required to such a point that you can live your life happily relying mainly and heavily (although not necessarily exclusively) on your own self-validation.

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

Pressure can Crack things but they can also create diamonds. Only a low developed person will succumb to critiscism. A Master will recognize that the others are just parts of himself that may have a point and need to keep In check. They use others negativity for their rise. Its like a snake. For one person the venom might be poison but for a scientist/ Shaman the poision might be medicine. Resistance is supposed to make you stronger and ascend to great heights. An eagle could now fly without wind resistance and you could not walk without resistance from the ground. Why would you avoid critiscsm when you know that it can be used for your betterment. This is the science of Alchemy, turning lead into gold.

(11-13-2016, 02:35 AM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-13-2016, 01:23 AM)heavysm Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

Errr...then I would change the people I'm around and find more like minded friends.

Regarding my friends, this has happened to me and I simply made the decision to move away from those people i once resonated with and connect with people who share similar goals (speaking just of the friends side of this situation).

Also, strong spirited people generally don't change their behavior to suit those around them. Being who they are naturally helps them attract those they get along with anyway. Otherwise they're just pandering to people they may not want to be around. It really doesn't make sense that a strong assertive person would change their ways to suit the opinions of others. That's what makes them strong and assertive; they are unwilling to adjust themselves to work within a level of behavior that they disagree with. Weak spirited people, maybe. Strong spirited? Nope.

One personal example I'll share is my own family. There isn't a trace of entrepreneurial ambition that i can find aside from myself, and it's always rough talking to them about any of my stuff. But I have somehow kept my course despite a wave of criticism and constant judgement.

This wasn't being resistant to their judgements once or twice...but for decades, and from multiple family members who are 10000% convinced they are right and i am wrong. But i know who i am and what i want, so they can't touch that. They aren't going to sway my core values since they're so off track from where I'm at.

If your last sentence was really true I would have given in and slogged away at a job like what they keep hammering at me, and I'd be in the same boat they are. But that hasn't happened. Despite their best efforts, I have yet to 'crack'

Well my situation is just like yours lol, I've yet to crack but that's only because I've managed to avoid them. I'd also be lying though, if I said their attitudes and beliefs hasn't effected me, however brief or minor.

Finding friends and acquaintances who share your values is an example of working with human nature, to be honest I'm not sure if those people were around or if someone hadn't inspired you, you'd be able to break free. I know my ability to break free was because of the way I was treated as kid (my family basically treated me like a king), that always stuck with me and I probably wouldn't be who I am today if wasn't for that, maybe in your case it was one person or a group of people who inspired you. But there's always a trace, we aren't so defiant for no reason, we don't think we can do it without an inspiration.

It's unavoidable, external validation not only shapes us as kids, it defines what we think is acceptable and achievable, in more than one area. Going against this is a struggle only few go through, but never fully overcome, even if they become completely successful in their endeavours.

Given the fact that any meaning derived from anything is created in your own mind, one could argue that there is no such thing as external validation as it is all created internally anyway. When someone loves you, you don't literally feel their love, your brain creates a feeling based on what you believe that means. That's also why there are depressed people who feel completely unloved despite the fact that people love them. With the realisation of this, as well as the realisation that we control our own minds, one can begin to completely disregard external validation, as it only means what we think it means anyway.

(11-13-2016, 05:50 AM)Hercules Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2016, 11:40 PM)Cozy Wrote: [ -> ]I understand Shannon, maybe you can ignore other people's judgments one or twice, but when you're constantly around people who misunderstand or criticize you, eventually you'll crack, it's just human nature.

I know the kind of person you're talking about, a person who makes their own rules and always has a high opinion of themselves, but even they have their limits, if they're in a group setting they will be influenced and change their actions to avoid criticism.

You can't avoid human nature, it would be best just to work with it.

Pressure can Crack things but they can also create diamonds. Only a low developed person will succumb to critiscism. A Master will recognize that the others are just parts of himself that may have a point and need to keep In check. They use others negativity for their rise. Its like a snake. For one person the venom might be poison but for a scientist/ Shaman the poision might be medicine. Resistance is supposed to make you stronger and ascend to great heights. An eagle could now fly without wind resistance and you could not walk without resistance from the ground. Why would you avoid critiscsm when you know that it can be used for your betterment. This is the science of Alchemy, turning lead into gold.

Lol, my point is that we're only human and we are, no matter how much we resist effected by it. We can succumb to it, or it can push us to prove others wrong, but my point still stands. Our value will always be determined by others, if you choose to interact with this world that is. We are social creatures, not machines.

There's always a limit to our resilience.