Subliminal Talk

Full Version: Shannon's Journal Discussion Thread, Vol. 5
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450
(07-19-2021, 03:56 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 02:58 PM)ncbeareatingman Wrote: [ -> ]Shannon,once youre done with this  Program,E5, I think its going to be intensely powerful and very very beneficial ,to say da least!!

Shannon's quote:
"I'm about to finish calculating toe settings from the FRM in E5, and then I have to figure out the settings for DRS. I doubt at this point that I'll finish doing DRS today, but we are very close to finished doing config work, so hopefully that's done tomorrow and then I can start building this thing.

The config coming out of the models tells me this is probably not going to be a program that goes un-noticed."

Let's just say that it's going to be real interesting to watch how E5 plays out.  

And E5 will be absolutely free of charge for all US first responders (police, sheriffs, state troopers, EMTs, etc.), all US medical doctors (including dentists) and nurses, all US military personnel including National Guard and Reservists (with proof of occupation, of course).

I love that! Also should be implemented as a "after duty" tool to use for veterans recovering from what they've experienced to be able to live in society again normally!!

Btw. What are your thoughts on stopping a 5G subliminal suddenly? Like WM 5.0.


I've used it 10 nights by now, 8 hours per night. 

I'm thinking if I should switch over to some other Subliminal that would be more in alignment with what I'm committed to in my spare time.

Which is meeting lots of girls and start dating multiple high quality girls with no strings attached.. 

I really want to enjoy my next 3-5 years, just living my life and dating gorgeous chicks who are just right for me and enjoying socializing and pushing my comfort zones...

Do you know anything about stopping a 5G subliminal and also if there's a subliminal better suited for what I'm looking for? 

Thx!!

-LM
(07-19-2021, 04:53 PM)LionMonkey Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 03:56 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 02:58 PM)ncbeareatingman Wrote: [ -> ]Shannon,once youre done with this  Program,E5, I think its going to be intensely powerful and very very beneficial ,to say da least!!

Shannon's quote:
"I'm about to finish calculating toe settings from the FRM in E5, and then I have to figure out the settings for DRS. I doubt at this point that I'll finish doing DRS today, but we are very close to finished doing config work, so hopefully that's done tomorrow and then I can start building this thing.

The config coming out of the models tells me this is probably not going to be a program that goes un-noticed."

Let's just say that it's going to be real interesting to watch how E5 plays out.  

And E5 will be absolutely free of charge for all US first responders (police, sheriffs, state troopers, EMTs, etc.), all US medical doctors (including dentists) and nurses, all US military personnel including National Guard and Reservists (with proof of occupation, of course).

I love that! Also should be implemented as a "after duty" tool to use for veterans recovering from what they've experienced to be able to live in society again normally!!


Military veterans get it free also, and for that exact reason.    I guess I should have specified active and retired.

Quote:Btw. What are your thoughts on stopping a 5G subliminal suddenly? Like WM 5.0.


I've used it 10 nights by now, 8 hours per night. 

I'm thinking if I should switch over to some other Subliminal that would be more in alignment with what I'm committed to in my spare time.

Which is meeting lots of girls and start dating multiple high quality girls with no strings attached.. 

I really want to enjoy my next 3-5 years, just living my life and dating gorgeous chicks who are just right for me and enjoying socializing and pushing my comfort zones...

Do you know anything about stopping a 5G subliminal and also if there's a subliminal better suited for what I'm looking for? 

Thx!!

-LM

WM isn't AM so you can stop before the end without bad results.  But you'll want to give yourself a week off at least.

As for something to achieve that goal... well that depends on how you want to achieve it and what your definition of "dating" is.  There's Aura of Love, which might be useful for attracting women, there's DMSI (next version is going to be quite interesting, I'm sure), there's LTU, OF, and others all making that easier in various different ways and directions.

If you haven't run through OF v3, I suggest that that is going to be a great option because women are very attracted to fearless men, and because it will improve your life and your future subliminals runs so much, as well as unlocking past subliminal runs as well.
(07-19-2021, 04:00 PM)Benjamin Wrote: [ -> ]But it won't be free for photoshop users. Roflmao

Ah, good times, eh Ben?  Good times.
(07-19-2021, 05:31 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 04:00 PM)Benjamin Wrote: [ -> ]But it won't be free for photoshop users. Roflmao

Ah, good times, eh Ben?  Good times.

Or time travelers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-5eFkq6XEs
(07-19-2021, 05:31 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 04:53 PM)LionMonkey Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 03:56 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 02:58 PM)ncbeareatingman Wrote: [ -> ]Shannon,once youre done with this  Program,E5, I think its going to be intensely powerful and very very beneficial ,to say da least!!

Shannon's quote:
"I'm about to finish calculating toe settings from the FRM in E5, and then I have to figure out the settings for DRS. I doubt at this point that I'll finish doing DRS today, but we are very close to finished doing config work, so hopefully that's done tomorrow and then I can start building this thing.

The config coming out of the models tells me this is probably not going to be a program that goes un-noticed."

Let's just say that it's going to be real interesting to watch how E5 plays out.  

And E5 will be absolutely free of charge for all US first responders (police, sheriffs, state troopers, EMTs, etc.), all US medical doctors (including dentists) and nurses, all US military personnel including National Guard and Reservists (with proof of occupation, of course).

I love that! Also should be implemented as a "after duty" tool to use for veterans recovering from what they've experienced to be able to live in society again normally!!


Military veterans get it free also, and for that exact reason.    I guess I should have specified active and retired.

Quote:Btw. What are your thoughts on stopping a 5G subliminal suddenly? Like WM 5.0.


I've used it 10 nights by now, 8 hours per night. 

I'm thinking if I should switch over to some other Subliminal that would be more in alignment with what I'm committed to in my spare time.

Which is meeting lots of girls and start dating multiple high quality girls with no strings attached.. 

I really want to enjoy my next 3-5 years, just living my life and dating gorgeous chicks who are just right for me and enjoying socializing and pushing my comfort zones...

Do you know anything about stopping a 5G subliminal and also if there's a subliminal better suited for what I'm looking for? 

Thx!!

-LM

WM isn't AM so you can stop before the end without bad results.  But you'll want to give yourself a week off at least.

As for something to achieve that goal... well that depends on how you want to achieve it and what your definition of "dating" is.  There's Aura of Love, which might be useful for attracting women, there's DMSI (next version is going to be quite interesting, I'm sure), there's LTU, OF, and others all making that easier in various different ways and directions.

If you haven't run through OF v3, I suggest that that is going to be a great option because women are very attracted to fearless men, and because it will improve your life and your future subliminals runs so much, as well as unlocking past subliminal runs as well.

Unlocking previous subs? Wow that's great news. I wonder how prominent that effect is. It's crazy how it's always been fear all along & it took us this long to get to where we are, but I'm happy were here now, Subliminals have always been amazing, despite how long it took to work & the resistance it often gave.

But now it's like a magic pill. And with a society that always wants things faster & magic pills, it's suprising more people don't use subluminals.
(07-19-2021, 06:08 PM)CatMan Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 05:31 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 04:00 PM)Benjamin Wrote: [ -> ]But it won't be free for photoshop users. Roflmao

Ah, good times, eh Ben?  Good times.

Or time travelers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-5eFkq6XEs

Hahaha i'm surprised this hasn't happened yet!
Quote:Unlocking previous subs? Wow that's great news.
Ya, that caught my eye too.
(07-19-2021, 05:31 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 04:53 PM)LionMonkey Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 03:56 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 02:58 PM)ncbeareatingman Wrote: [ -> ]Shannon,once youre done with this  Program,E5, I think its going to be intensely powerful and very very beneficial ,to say da least!!

Shannon's quote:
"I'm about to finish calculating toe settings from the FRM in E5, and then I have to figure out the settings for DRS. I doubt at this point that I'll finish doing DRS today, but we are very close to finished doing config work, so hopefully that's done tomorrow and then I can start building this thing.

The config coming out of the models tells me this is probably not going to be a program that goes un-noticed."

Let's just say that it's going to be real interesting to watch how E5 plays out.  

And E5 will be absolutely free of charge for all US first responders (police, sheriffs, state troopers, EMTs, etc.), all US medical doctors (including dentists) and nurses, all US military personnel including National Guard and Reservists (with proof of occupation, of course).

I love that! Also should be implemented as a "after duty" tool to use for veterans recovering from what they've experienced to be able to live in society again normally!!


Military veterans get it free also, and for that exact reason.    I guess I should have specified active and retired.

Quote:Btw. What are your thoughts on stopping a 5G subliminal suddenly? Like WM 5.0.


I've used it 10 nights by now, 8 hours per night. 

I'm thinking if I should switch over to some other Subliminal that would be more in alignment with what I'm committed to in my spare time.

Which is meeting lots of girls and start dating multiple high quality girls with no strings attached.. 

I really want to enjoy my next 3-5 years, just living my life and dating gorgeous chicks who are just right for me and enjoying socializing and pushing my comfort zones...

Do you know anything about stopping a 5G subliminal and also if there's a subliminal better suited for what I'm looking for? 

Thx!!

-LM

WM isn't AM so you can stop before the end without bad results.  But you'll want to give yourself a week off at least.

As for something to achieve that goal... well that depends on how you want to achieve it and what your definition of "dating" is.  There's Aura of Love, which might be useful for attracting women, there's DMSI (next version is going to be quite interesting, I'm sure), there's LTU, OF, and others all making that easier in various different ways and directions.

If you haven't run through OF v3, I suggest that that is going to be a great option because women are very attracted to fearless men, and because it will improve your life and your future subliminals runs so much, as well as unlocking past subliminal runs as well.


That's good news! (I did stop a AM 4G after 2 weeks and switched to WM. Hopefully nothing too serious)

I mean dating is pretty simple for me.

I actually really LIKE to go to bars, socialize and meet chicks. 
There's excitement, lots of not giving a fuck, lots of fun and lots of the unknown.
It's new every night and filled with possibilities and I find it very refreshing from the everyday life.

I'm an addict to high emotions

(Although I'm definitely not closed to meeting chicks in the daytime and setting up hangouts later. I'm just not very experienced with success on that front and therefore probably also find it less fun and interesting. Plus I'm mostly busy working in the daytime)

I think big part of it comes from a sense of anonymity amongst lots of people.

Q1: So yeah.. a good subliminal for utilizing that kind of environment.
Like WM I feel is quite amazing with voice change , more abundance feeling etc. but lacks proactiveness/desire to meet chicks you have never met. 
Do you think DMSI is the best for that?

Sounds like I should go for OF v3 and then DMSI.
Q2: But I'm wondering if DMSI also lacks the desire of proactiveness/desire to meet chicks and escalate the interactions with chicks.

Maybe OF v3 is the missing key?

Gotta mention that while being on AM 4G (yes I bought it way back but just recently returned to the forum and decided to try Subliminal's again. My life situation is also very different now, what a coincidence to be back huh!)

At first on AM, it was a desire towards chicks but then when I went out at night to socialize and meet some chicks, I felt nothing.

Then I focused on seeking discomfort and I started to feel something again. I also had more drive to meeting chicks suddenly. Right around that time I switched over to WM...

I feel like I just wanna jump right into another subliminal. I feel so ready to do something about my life in whatever ways that has proven effective without damaging myself. 

Q3: Do you need to take a week off? 

Q4: I only know about 5G with WM. How long do you run OF v3? And can you combine it with for example the new ME? 

Q5: btw. Why is SM gone from my purchased products catalogue as the only product missing?

Thanks for everything Shannon!

-LM
Umm.... there's no one journaling their ME journey. @Shannon is there anyone who report the results directly to you?
(07-20-2021, 03:53 PM)LionMonkey Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 05:31 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 04:53 PM)LionMonkey Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 03:56 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2021, 02:58 PM)ncbeareatingman Wrote: [ -> ]
Shannon,once youre done with this  Program,E5, I think its going to be intensely powerful and very very beneficial ,to say da least!!

Shannon's quote:
"I'm about to finish calculating toe settings from the FRM in E5, and then I have to figure out the settings for DRS. I doubt at this point that I'll finish doing DRS today, but we are very close to finished doing config work, so hopefully that's done tomorrow and then I can start building this thing.

The config coming out of the models tells me this is probably not going to be a program that goes un-noticed."


Let's just say that it's going to be real interesting to watch how E5 plays out.  

And E5 will be absolutely free of charge for all US first responders (police, sheriffs, state troopers, EMTs, etc.), all US medical doctors (including dentists) and nurses, all US military personnel including National Guard and Reservists (with proof of occupation, of course).


I love that! Also should be implemented as a "after duty" tool to use for veterans recovering from what they've experienced to be able to live in society again normally!!


Military veterans get it free also, and for that exact reason.    I guess I should have specified active and retired.

Quote:Btw. What are your thoughts on stopping a 5G subliminal suddenly? Like WM 5.0.


I've used it 10 nights by now, 8 hours per night. 

I'm thinking if I should switch over to some other Subliminal that would be more in alignment with what I'm committed to in my spare time.

Which is meeting lots of girls and start dating multiple high quality girls with no strings attached.. 

I really want to enjoy my next 3-5 years, just living my life and dating gorgeous chicks who are just right for me and enjoying socializing and pushing my comfort zones...

Do you know anything about stopping a 5G subliminal and also if there's a subliminal better suited for what I'm looking for? 

Thx!!

-LM


WM isn't AM so you can stop before the end without bad results.  But you'll want to give yourself a week off at least.

As for something to achieve that goal... well that depends on how you want to achieve it and what your definition of "dating" is.  There's Aura of Love, which might be useful for attracting women, there's DMSI (next version is going to be quite interesting, I'm sure), there's LTU, OF, and others all making that easier in various different ways and directions.

If you haven't run through OF v3, I suggest that that is going to be a great option because women are very attracted to fearless men, and because it will improve your life and your future subliminals runs so much, as well as unlocking past subliminal runs as well.



That's good news! (I did stop a AM 4G after 2 weeks and switched to WM. Hopefully nothing too serious)


Actually, that is pretty serious.  You obviously didn't read the instructions.  AM works by pushing you off balance in specific ways that force growth in steps in each stage.  You are to never stop AM until it's finished once you start.  But seeing as how you ignored the instructions, and then did WM for a short period of time, I'm guessing you're just going to do whatever you want regardless.  I wouldn't start the multi-stage subs if that is the case.  It won't be good for you.

Quote:I mean dating is pretty simple for me.

I actually really LIKE to go to bars, socialize and meet chicks. 
There's excitement, lots of not giving a fuck, lots of fun and lots of the unknown.
It's new every night and filled with possibilities and I find it very refreshing from the everyday life.

I'm an addict to high emotions

(Although I'm definitely not closed to meeting chicks in the daytime and setting up hangouts later. I'm just not very experienced with success on that front and therefore probably also find it less fun and interesting. Plus I'm mostly busy working in the daytime)

I think big part of it comes from a sense of anonymity amongst lots of people.

Q1: So yeah.. a good subliminal for utilizing that kind of environment.
Like WM I feel is quite amazing with voice change , more abundance feeling etc. but lacks proactiveness/desire to meet chicks you have never met. 
Do you think DMSI is the best for that?


If you want to be irresistibly sexually attractive.  Presuming you 

Quote:Sounds like I should go for OF v3 and then DMSI.


Much more likely to actually execute DMSI if you do that.  But it won't matter if you don't use OF for the instructed amount of time.


Quote:Q2: But I'm wondering if DMSI also lacks the desire of proactiveness/desire to meet chicks and escalate the interactions with chicks.


Maybe OF v3 is the missing key?

Gotta mention that while being on AM 4G (yes I bought it way back but just recently returned to the forum and decided to try Subliminal's again. My life situation is also very different now, what a coincidence to be back huh!)

At first on AM, it was a desire towards chicks but then when I went out at night to socialize and meet some chicks, I felt nothing.

Then I focused on seeking discomfort and I started to feel something again. I also had more drive to meeting chicks suddenly. Right around that time I switched over to WM...

I feel like I just wanna jump right into another subliminal. I feel so ready to do something about my life in whatever ways that has proven effective without damaging myself. 


DMSI is about you being the prize, and her doing something about it.  There's no "Go hunt her" in it at all.  AM is good for "hunt her down", and so is SM.  But you can't start and stop and start and stop.  If it's been more than about 6 months using AM, you'll need a full run through before you do SM, both of which you actually have to finish.  But again, by the sounds of it you're not in a place right now where long runs are going to work.

Quote:Q3: Do you need to take a week off? 


If you don't like turbulence.

Quote:Q4: I only know about 5G with WM. How long do you run OF v3? And can you combine it with for example the new ME? 


OFv3 is 5.75.7G.  That is to say it's at least three major steps up from 5G.  Because it is dealing with the most difficult of all goals, it takes as much time as it says to use it in the instructions on the product description page.  I think that's 6 months per run through for this version.

You couldn't combine 5G programs, so why would one three generations down the line be any different?  Unfortunately, the only way to make these work better is to increase focus, not decrease it.  Using multiple programs decreases focus.


Quote:Q5: btw. Why is SM gone from my purchased products catalogue as the only product missing?

Thanks for everything Shannon!

-LM


No idea.  Send an email to Ben on the back end and ask.
(07-20-2021, 04:09 PM)TouchyCat Wrote: [ -> ]Umm.... there's no one journaling their ME journey. @Shannon is there anyone who report the results directly to you?

The only reports I have gotten have been on the forum.  I imagine that there are no journals because it would be awfully boring to try to keep one.  The usage time that came out of the models strongly suggests that the process will require many months, so it probably won't be very easy to see results day by day.  On top of that, I'm sure a lot of the people who bought and started using it wouldn't want to make it a public thing.
Quote:Q5: btw. Why is SM gone from my purchased products catalogue as the only product missing?

My first thought is that you used the download attempts, I can reset them if you send an email to the store with your order details.
(07-20-2021, 04:32 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]DMSI is about you being the prize, and her doing something about it.  There's no "Go hunt her" in it at all.  AM is good for "hunt her down", and so is SM.  But you can't start and stop and start and stop.  If it's been more than about 6 months using AM, you'll need a full run through before you do SM, both of which you actually have to finish.  But again, by the sounds of it you're not in a place right now where long runs are going to work.

Is it really the case that you have to redo the whole AM program if the end of last run is older than 6 months?

*I* do read carefully the instructions and I am pretty sure that WM and SM instructions are saying to run stage 7 for 30 days if you have completed AM long time ago...

That is what I intended to do when I will be ready to run WM...
(07-20-2021, 05:11 PM)lano1106 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-20-2021, 04:32 PM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]DMSI is about you being the prize, and her doing something about it.  There's no "Go hunt her" in it at all.  AM is good for "hunt her down", and so is SM.  But you can't start and stop and start and stop.  If it's been more than about 6 months using AM, you'll need a full run through before you do SM, both of which you actually have to finish.  But again, by the sounds of it you're not in a place right now where long runs are going to work.

Is it really the case that you have to redo the whole AM program if the end of last run is older than 6 months?

*I* do read carefully the instructions and I am pretty sure that WM and SM instructions are saying to run stage 7 for 30 days if you have completed AM long time ago...

That is what I intended to do when I will be ready to run WM...

If you have completed a run of AM6 you can run AM6 Stage 7 to get back to ready for the SM/WM, but LionMonkey is jumping around every couple of weeks.  Maybe I misunderstood his post but I thought I understood that he was running AM6 Stage 1 for a couple of weeks before jumping to WM.  Jumping around from sub to sub like that screws things up.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450