Subliminal Talk

CatMan doesn't believe in body language. Or seeing the results he's getting from DMSI, lol.

Unfortunately not seen any external changes for me either. I usually pursue women however I took a few steps back to see if women chase me or give me IOI's . Not seen anything happen as yet. I think Shannon will take this feedback onboard and iron out the quirks in the new upgrade.

Hi there, ReeZox.

I don't know, it could be possible. She's very attractive, so I suppose I still find it ridiculous she would be attracted to me and doubt anything like that highly. And I don't know if I've simply just given up with girls, either.

I don't know about body language stuff, I guess I don't put a lot of stock into how a woman points her feet etc. I don't buy it. I find it can be a slippery slope as I know a lot of people want to see the program work, to making mountains out of mole hills with stuff like this. I equate it to wishful thinking, and prefer to judge by clear and obvious indicators as they are more definite. I've been wrong often enough when trying to interpret female "cues", to question the signals being sent, if they are being sent at all. I've seen girls act WAY over the top obvious to guys they find really hot and sexy, so they do it, just never to me. But I've seen it often enough to know what it looks like, at least.

And it isn't that they aren't doing anything, they're nice and cool and good banter etc. it's that it seems the same as before. There hasn't been any tangible difference, is what I mean.

Hi Shannon.

Glad to see you back.

No, I don't believe in body language that much. That's right. I find it to be mostly wishful thinking, and not an exact science at all. I've been wrong enough when a girl is sending "clear IOIs" to be very skeptical of it.

And "results" are subjective. But, INTERNAL "results" are one thing, EXTERNAL "results" are another. I don't know why we butt heads on this so often. I've been clear on the difference often. I get dreams and stuff internally, but nothing on the outside so far. I can't talk about what isn't there.

If a day comes where I do get clear results EXTERNALLY, I'll post about it, believe me...

Hi Thor,

I hear you. Yeah, it's pretty clear we're still a long way off from the program being done.

I used to look down on people that moved to other programs, I stopped doing that awhile ago. Spending all this time spinning the wheels can make you doubt that it will ever come through, and if it's a waste of time. I can see the logic, and respect the choice.

To me, and it's just my opinion, I will also say that you seem to be making improvements. Really a combination of effects will cause things to happen. Not being dependent on outcomes is a good thing in this area, and IDGAF is part of the foundation of that.

Hi there Nox.

It is tough for me, because I can't tell if it's an improvement and the creation of an IDGAF, or if it's just a sense of futility and giving up with girls. Functionally, they're the same, I've written about this for awhile, how I can't tell the difference between them to be honest. Truth being, I don't know which it is.

Appreciate the words. I hope you're doing well.

(04-17-2017, 09:47 AM)CatMan Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Shannon.

Glad to see you back.

No, I don't believe in body language that much. That's right. I find it to be mostly wishful thinking, and not an exact science at all. I've been wrong enough when a girl is sending "clear IOIs" to be very skeptical of it.

And "results" are subjective. But, INTERNAL "results" are one thing, EXTERNAL "results" are another. I don't know why we butt heads on this so often. I've been clear on the difference often. I get dreams and stuff internally, but nothing on the outside so far. I can't talk about what isn't there.

If a day comes where I do get clear results EXTERNALLY, I'll post about it, believe me...

Body language is the most misunderstood form of communication humans engage in. It's the most instinctual and primal, and therefore below the level of logic. It's also the most subtle.

To understand it, you first must be able to see it. 99% of guys have no idea it exists, and the majority of the rest learn a few things and think they understand it, when there's a lot more to understand.

For example, when women flip their hair, it could mean three different things depending on her age, the context and how frequently she does it.

When a woman bends over and aims it at you, it could mean at least two different things, again depending on context and other factors.

The issue guys have with body language is that they are trying to make it simple and it's not. Body language is a series of "words" made up of actions, which are conjugated or declined according to a variety of variables, and then combined to form the final communication.

Here's an example.

A few days ago, I went out to eat with GF. We went to IHOP and it was 3 am. The only people in the restaurant were me, GF and the server, B, who is a long time friend of ours.

B is married and has a daughter. I have met her daughter, husband, mother and grandmother. I know that B is interested in me sexually, because she gives me sexual interest body language signals.

Not sometimes. Every time she sees me, and is not ridiculously busy. Point #1: Repetition and thematic signals. One signal could typically mean 2-3 different things, depending on circumstances. In her case, it is repetitious, and thematic. Every time she is not busy, and always sexual signals.

This particular time she was sitting talking to us while waiting for our food to be cooked, and she was across the aisle from us, facing me, but sitting on the same side of the table as GF was (across from me). Signal #1: She is facing me, while predominantly talking to GF. Normally you would sit facing 45 degrees left or right of where she was facing. This is a signal that I have her attention, she is focused on me.

Signal #2: She had her legs apart. One leg was down and bent, one leg was up and tucked in. In this configuration, the signal is, "I want to fuck you, and I'm offering you pussy, but I don't want to look like a total whore, especially in front of your girlfriend, so I'll put my foot in front of pussy so I have some plausible deniability."

Signal #3: She eventually spread her legs as wide as they could go and uncovered pussy. Both legs were down. She was almost doing a seated split. This is an escalation of signal #2, and remains consistent with the theme. "I REALLY want you to understand what I'm saying here, and at this point, I don't care what your girlfriend thinks, or I don't think she'll notice." I was dying to photograph this, but could not do so without being noticed. I do have some photographs of other women signalling me this way, but I'm too lazy right now to upload them.

Signal #4: She returned to the position of Signal #2.

Signal #5: She held this position for 20+ minutes. It was more than slightly unladylike.

Signal #6: I have seen her do this to me before, even when the restaurant was not empty.

Signal #7: I have seen her respond to other women giving me this signal by also giving me this signal.

Now, at this point, it should be easy for me to just say, "Hey, B, wanna fuck?" and have her drag me out behind the building, right? Nope. Because as much as she is signalling me that she wants to fuck, we have to deal with the second half of the equation, too.

She is female.

Which means she's under a lot of societal scrutiny. Which means she can and will only move on her desires if I make an aggressive enough move and take full responsibility for what I do, AND what she does. In other words, she's willing to fuck me, but only if she has no responsibility for whatever happens. And I have to make all the moves. And I still have to do it in the right way for her to be able to and willing to fuck. Remember, she must always have zero responsibility for sex, have plausible deniability at all times, and must have enough privacy. And I must approach and do my thing to get us to sex without making her look like or feel like a slut, whore or anything else that is negative.

Body language is real, and it exists, and we humans communicate through it more than spoken language. But it's also a very complex language and consciously, it takes a lot of time and practice to even see it, and then more still to understand it correctly.

Repetition, theme maintenance and context are everything.

Almost every body language signal can mean multiple things.

And on top of all that... she may not even consciously realize she is signalling! You are observing what her subconscious wants... and if her conscious mind is not aware of that, or you approach her the wrong way, or at the wrong time, she will deny deny deny. Anything to save face, be innocent, and not have to take personal responsibility or be judged by others. Denial is not just a river in Egypt, my friend.

So all told, it's rather amusing, to be polite, that you take the stance that "body language doesn't exist/mean anything because I think I know how to see and read it, but it doesn't get me the results I thought it should". I have told you this before... that only means you don't speak the language well enough yet.

As for the external results, the logic there is about like saying that "I have only climbed the staircase if I have stepped on the top step." Well, lots of steps need to be taken before that top step... and they are all still climbing the staircase.

You're back to trying to stonewall. Give B side a week and see what happens.

(04-17-2017, 09:43 AM)CatMan Wrote: [ -> ]Hi there, ReeZox.

I don't know about body language stuff, I guess I don't put a lot of stock into how a woman points her feet etc. I don't buy it. I find it can be a slippery slope as I know a lot of people want to see the program work, to making mountains out of mole hills with stuff like this. I equate it to wishful thinking, and prefer to judge by clear and obvious indicators as they are more definite. I've been wrong often enough when trying to interpret female "cues", to question the signals being sent, if they are being sent at all. I've seen girls act WAY over the top obvious to guys they find really hot and sexy, so they do it, just never to me. But I've seen it often enough to know what it looks like, at least.

And it isn't that they aren't doing anything, they're nice and cool and good banter etc. it's that it seems the same as before. There hasn't been any tangible difference, is what I mean.

Okay, so for you to see tangible results from DMSI a woman has to tell you she wants you to fuck her, or to simply make her engage in intercourse with you?

By doing that you have created a mountain for DMSI to overcome from the beginning. Not saying it won't happen, I am quite sure it will. But maybe, something for you would be to instead of climbing a mountain start with a hill. And try rolling with the snowball effect. You will gain momentum, and motivation to keep doing DMSI and eventually that mountain will be overcome. And many guys says they know "these signs" and easily could get them if they were done to them. Yet when it does happen, maybe not the exact same thing. They don't get it.

Body language is not an exact science, but there can also be a lot of discussions on what is. What body language does, however, is showing what somebody unconsciously or consciously may be feeling. Arousal, fear or any of the other emotions.

A woman or a man pointing her feet towards you or someone else does not necessarily mean anything. But it COULD mean that their attention is towards whatever they're pointed towards. The more weird/random these movements tend to be, the more likely is that something caused that reaction and that something may very likely be an attractive male giving that effect. In this case a DMSI user (you).

Any sudden change is VERY LIKELY to be a "tell" of someone, no matter what the context is, that something that has been said/done caused this specific reaction. And depending on what the reaction was, it can be interpreted as a sign of anger, happiness or arousal.
For example, you do see when a person is genuinely happy, vs someone who just pretends to be happy. But at the same time, our faces is generally the one thing that shouldn't be trusted when reading body language.

If I am on a train and I see a woman pointing her feet towards me I don't really give a damn. There are too many reasons for why they could be pointed towards me. In some cases, it would make less sense if someone's feet ain't pointed towards me (if they're opposite me). But that doesn't mean they are having sexual dreams or are having anything with me involved in their thoughts at all. So using context together with reading body language is king.

But when this woman also starts flipping her hair away from her neck, starts acting nervously, starts "playing" with her purse. Gives me longer and longer looks. Continuing with the feets pointed towards me in a weird direction and more "weird" behavior that I can't describe with words, what is the likelihood of it being a reaction caused by me?

This is what I'm using, not an exact science. But my own logical thinking of the likelihood based on my own objective observations of all this non-verbal information. So even if you may be skeptical of body languages in general, I don't think you are skeptical of your own logical thinking. What you should do is open yourself up to the possibilities that body languages could give these clues to a certain feeling/emotion of another person. What you then have to do is find out what these clues are, so you can decode them.
My logical thinking in this context would conclude the chances this woman is interested in me. Is quite high. I could be wrong, and I'm open for that. But the chances of her being interested is higher than a woman who just looks at her phone on the train.
None of these were "obvious" signs. But they are very good tells, as they all are almost certainly done unconsciously.

Seeing that you have said yourself that you are seen as a social and charming guy, and if I've read correctly that you are an ENTJ (same as me) who are generally quite captivating. This together with you being a "successful" gentleman (society's standards), there is already some big chances these women you hang out with were interested in you from the beginning. Before starting DMSI but that you haven't "caught onto it". Or have unconsciously done something to "screw it up".

This is the case for me. I haven't noticed any major changes in my life with girls I know. Some girls that I haven't been paying attention to, has however been trying to engage with me more since starting DMSI. But that is the only external effect I can say from girls within my social circle. Why is this the case? Could it be that these women were interested in me before doing DMSI and that I don't see any changes because they are already "acting" interested?
I know this as a fact for me.

Could it be the same for you? I would definitely say it's possible, and right now I also think it would be a positive thing for you to start trying to climb that hill, before going for the mountain.

(04-17-2017, 11:23 AM)Sully Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2017, 09:47 AM)CatMan Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Shannon.

Glad to see you back.

No, I don't believe in body language that much. That's right. I find it to be mostly wishful thinking, and not an exact science at all. I've been wrong enough when a girl is sending "clear IOIs" to be very skeptical of it.

And "results" are subjective. But, INTERNAL "results" are one thing, EXTERNAL "results" are another. I don't know why we butt heads on this so often. I've been clear on the difference often. I get dreams and stuff internally, but nothing on the outside so far. I can't talk about what isn't there.

If a day comes where I do get clear results EXTERNALLY, I'll post about it, believe me...

Body language is more primal than our verbal language. That said, a lot of guys here are making something out of nothing. A person can easily delude themself and say "oh she was looking at me" and blah blah blah. Lot of guys just wasting their time by thinking they are getting IOI's rather than seeing if a girl is actually interested in them.

It's hard to read many of the journals simply since some are happy with just smiles or whatever nonsense. The only IOI that should be focused on is making out, BJ, or plain fu****g.

Please don't ever try to write a book on body language. You have a long way to go yet.

A bit off topic from the main thread but on body language, isn't body language also slightly complicated by it being a combination of both signals that are independent and dependent on culture? Ie: some body language it doesn't matter what the culture is but others are dependent on the culture of the person? Or was it that culture gives the context for the signals? I haven't studied body language in a long time, so my memory on this may be off.

(04-17-2017, 12:18 PM)ResJudicata Wrote: [ -> ]A bit off topic from the main thread but on body language, isn't body language also slightly complicated by it being a combination of both signals that are independent and dependent on culture? Ie: some body language it doesn't matter what the culture is but others are dependent on the culture of the person? Or was it that culture gives the context for the signals? I haven't studied body language in a long time, so my memory on this may be off.

Yes, there is differences depending on what culture.

For example, in some countries, it's disrespectful to look into someone's eyes. But in others, it's sort of a sign of trust/connection.

But those are more of the conscious signals. The unconscious signals, mostly remain universal. Such as smiling

I'm not expecting a woman to tell me she wants to bang outright, or some Axe Effect stuff. That's too much to expect from my situation ReeZox. Any kind of behaviour that is out of the norm for me, I would accept as external results. That's all. As long as it's clear, and out of the norm, I'm happy. I'm not expecting anything over the top, especially for the first sign.

Shannon, I've written off Version B all this time thinking at least healing and clearing would be good to do before the final version. Thinking that at the earliest, that would be the time I'd see something in reality. Even though at times I've wondered if I get bogged down in healing and clearing almost exclusively, and that the attraction stuff doesn't fire. I haven't felt NEARLY the awful stuff earlier versions have done, this version has been super SUPER smooth to run, surprisingly. And I wanted to try to give actionable info for Version A, thinking that was important. I'm surprised you want me to try B. I already finished today's loops an hour or so ago. I'll think about it for tomorrow then. I figured Version B would be a waste of time for me, and I didn't want to derail anything like you said before, but I'll think about it now. And I guess I find the body language stuff so easy to misdiagnose, and WANTING the girl to like me, can colour the lense so to speak. I've had girls do that stuff to me, and then only get rejected often enough to not put much faith in it. Great for those who get success from it, but for me it's been YMMV.

I'll seriously think about Version B now.

Shannon, could you perhaps reccommend some books on reading body language?