Subliminal Talk

Perhaps the drinking incident showed that you CAN control yourself while drinking. I personally think the aspect of AA that sees alcoholism as a disease is very dangerous. It can be demonstrated in the following way:

- Let us assume that person x is fully free in his/her actions
- Also assume that person x beliefs that his/her will is determined by the "disease" of alcoholism
- Conclusion: Person x will act as if his/her actions are determined by the disease, even though they are free to resist the drug of their choice anyway.

You should give yourself more credit than you do. You succesfully resisted acting as if you were "diseased". You have got more control than you think you do, and that's a good thing, as you do not have to live with the "disease" in the back of your mind.

(02-01-2016, 10:45 PM)Inconceivablezen Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps the drinking incident showed that you CAN control yourself while drinking. I personally think the aspect of AA that sees alcoholism as a disease is very dangerous. It can be demonstrated in the following way:

- Let us assume that person x is fully free in his/her actions
- Also assume that person x beliefs that his/her will is determined by the "disease" of alcoholism
- Conclusion: Person x will act as if his/her actions are determined by the disease, even though they are free to resist the drug of their choice anyway.

You should give yourself more credit than you do. You succesfully resisted acting as if you were "diseased". You have got more control than you think you do, and that's a good thing, as you do not have to live with the "disease" in the back of your mind.

While I agree with this point concerning AA, it is very dangerous for anyone who has developed the coping mechanism of escaping into alcohol (as opposed to, say, "disease of alcoholism") to assume they can just all of a sudden handle anything. It should be an adjustment that is approached cautiously and with diligence and care not to allow oneself to fall back into old habits and excuses for drinking alcohol.

The process is one of outgrowing the immaturity of easy escape from fears and hurts, instead of dealing with them; but perhaps even more than that it is one of developing new, safe coping methods and habits that do not involve drugs, alcohol or escape.

It is easy for someone who has not seen and experienced alcoholism first hand to assume that the process can be like a light switch for everyone - easy to turn off when you know a few things. The personality prone to this issue (as opposed to, say, a "disease") is very often skilled at self delusion, self deception, justification and self sabotage in efforts to continue accessing this easy escape from their challenges in life. Thus, caution and care are the order of the day, even though it is true that labeling it a "disease" is a self dis-empowering excuse to continue being an alcoholic and taking no responsibility for one's choices, actions and results. Highly ironic for a group dedicated to overcoming this "disease".

all i know is that i've been battling alcoholism and drug addiction for 10 years, and i finally found something that works. my story is that of living a life constantly teetering on the edge of death, wanting so badly to pull the trigger and die, but unable to. the pain of living is so great that even obliteration by intoxication doesn't seem to work to numb the pain. wanting so badly to put down the drugs and alcohol and praying and crying because i don't want to take the next hit but my body is doing it anyway, leaving me with no choice in the matter. going to jail every year, catching 2 felonies, and 5 misdemeanors isn't "a wake up call" enough to stop. 3 overdoses later, and still can't stop. i've seen the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel", knowing full well coming back to life was NOT likely, but happened anyway.

Treating my "disease" by going to AA in exchange for a life worth living happy and free is a hell of a deal

but everyone has their own journey and i'm blessed enough to have come to indigo mind labs to supplement my recovery, and enhance my life. maybe i won't need AA soon enough, but right now it's not worth risking it, since my life is quite literally on the line.

Wow...

Sounds like you should REALLY try the Alcohol addiction sub and illicit drug and/or marijuana subs...depending on what kind of drugs you've used. You should really get those issues dealt with first.

I have used two of Shannon's addiction subs, and can vouch for their effectiveness. Honestly, getting rid of the monkey(s), will go a long way for your growth, man.

(02-02-2016, 12:25 AM)Shannon Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-01-2016, 10:45 PM)Inconceivablezen Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps the drinking incident showed that you CAN control yourself while drinking. I personally think the aspect of AA that sees alcoholism as a disease is very dangerous. It can be demonstrated in the following way:

- Let us assume that person x is fully free in his/her actions
- Also assume that person x beliefs that his/her will is determined by the "disease" of alcoholism
- Conclusion: Person x will act as if his/her actions are determined by the disease, even though they are free to resist the drug of their choice anyway.

You should give yourself more credit than you do. You succesfully resisted acting as if you were "diseased". You have got more control than you think you do, and that's a good thing, as you do not have to live with the "disease" in the back of your mind.

While I agree with this point concerning AA, it is very dangerous for anyone who has developed the coping mechanism of escaping into alcohol (as opposed to, say, "disease of alcoholism") to assume they can just all of a sudden handle anything. It should be an adjustment that is approached cautiously and with diligence and care not to allow oneself to fall back into old habits and excuses for drinking alcohol.

The process is one of outgrowing the immaturity of easy escape from fears and hurts, instead of dealing with them; but perhaps even more than that it is one of developing new, safe coping methods and habits that do not involve drugs, alcohol or escape.

It is easy for someone who has not seen and experienced alcoholism first hand to assume that the process can be like a light switch for everyone - easy to turn off when you know a few things. The personality prone to this issue (as opposed to, say, a "disease") is very often skilled at self delusion, self deception, justification and self sabotage in efforts to continue accessing this easy escape from their challenges in life. Thus, caution and care are the order of the day, even though it is true that labeling it a "disease" is a self dis-empowering excuse to continue being an alcoholic and taking no responsibility for one's choices, actions and results. Highly ironic for a group dedicated to overcoming this "disease".

I agree with you that it is in some sense dangerous to assume that it's a light switch for everyone. I agree with you on many of these issues. I basically think that it's a very strong habit that is always the default coping mechanism of a person. Any kind of stress or drawback and even highs like celebrations will elicit the coping mechanism. A modern day philosopher called Neil Levy has written some great articles about the role of the environment, weakness of will, and resisting addicition.

Levy's main point is that there are two types of psychological systems. System two are the slow and more rational system, while system one are the "default" habitual sytem. When a person has full levels of willpower, system one resources are active. This is why an addict could quit their addiction for some time, until something difficult comes up. Difficult choices and situations cost willpower, and lead to the realiance on system one resources. System two resources are depleted by then. When system two resources are depleted, people experience "weakness of will". One then defaults to their habitual pattern. This could for be drinking, for example. But as drinking continues and becomes a strong habit, while simultaniously depleting system two resources more often as drinking leads to lots of problems. It then becomes a vicious cycle, where system two resources never really recover.

Why do I bring this up? I think this conception of addiction can both explain why AA is succesful by complete abstinence, but also show why it's dangerous to see alcoholism as a disease. People can change their habits. When the habit of alcoholism is changed, people wil no langer fall back on alcohol with any setback. But that takes time, and I do think AA is correct in that sense. It also explains why I do agree with you that it's not a light switch

(02-02-2016, 08:50 AM)eternitys_child Wrote: [ -> ]all i know is that i've been battling alcoholism and drug addiction for 10 years, and i finally found something that works. my story is that of living a life constantly teetering on the edge of death, wanting so badly to pull the trigger and die, but unable to. the pain of living is so great that even obliteration by intoxication doesn't seem to work to numb the pain. wanting so badly to put down the drugs and alcohol and praying and crying because i don't want to take the next hit but my body is doing it anyway, leaving me with no choice in the matter. going to jail every year, catching 2 felonies, and 5 misdemeanors isn't "a wake up call" enough to stop. 3 overdoses later, and still can't stop. i've seen the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel", knowing full well coming back to life was NOT likely, but happened anyway.

Treating my "disease" by going to AA in exchange for a life worth living happy and free is a hell of a deal

but everyone has their own journey and i'm blessed enough to have come to indigo mind labs to supplement my recovery, and enhance my life. maybe i won't need AA soon enough, but right now it's not worth risking it, since my life is quite literally on the line.

I'm not saying that AA does not work for some people. I am saying that a lot of what AA preaches is actually causing more harm than good, and helps to actually perpetuate the problem.

Ultimately, it is a matter of what works for you. I get that. But the real solution is to outgrow the escape into escape, by taking responsibility for your actions. This...

Quote:wanting so badly to put down the drugs and alcohol and praying and crying because i don't want to take the next hit but my body is doing it anyway, leaving me with no choice in the matter.

..is cop out responsibility avoidance bullshit. You always had the choice, because you are the one who controls your body. It's not a question of whether or not you had the choice, it's a matter of which aspect of your awareness had the upper hand in control of the body at the time. The part of you crying and praying to stop obviously did not. But YOU did - some part of YOU. And that part of you controlled your body in the right ways to do what happened. It made the choice to do so, regardless of what the crying part of you wanted. And that part of you IS STILL YOU.

AA teaches us that A) we are helpless, and someone else must do it for us; B) that really overcoming the issue is hopeless; and C) that the issue is a disease which we have no responsibility for.

This is all, every bit of it, demonstrably incorrect.

On helplessness:

We are never helpless unless we choose to be, and by it's very nature - being a choice - that means we were not helpless because we had a choice. Really, it's the choice to act helpless and delude yourself into believing you are helpless so you have an excuse to get away with acting helpless. BEING helpless is what happens when you get your arms and legs chopped off and you're suspended from your arm pits. That didn't happen to you. You are not helpless and never have been; it is and always has been YOUR CHOICE. What you experience is and always has been the result of that fact. It is what happened as a result of your choices, because your choices lead to your actions, and your body is inert without YOU making those choices. See dead people for an example of this.

On that really overcoming the issue is hopeless:

According to AA, "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic". This is not true. I have personally seen people go from completely out of control raging alcoholics to perfectly in control of their lives. Even without AA. Even if they sampled alcoholic drinks occasionally. (And by sampled, I mean, took a sip to taste the home brew that as being made by their son. Not drinking any of it. Which is to say, they had control of their actions because they chose not to drink alcohol for the purpose of getting drunk.)

Alcoholism is no more a disease than it is a physical thing. Alcoholism is a set of behaviors that are a learned escape mechanism, and they can be unlearned and they can be overwritten with something else and something better. Claiming that you are always going to be alcoholic is actually an excuse to drink, because we all know that the definition of alcoholism is "habitually drinking too much to escape from pain and/or fear". So if alcoholics drink too much habitually, that is what an alcoholic is going to do.

The truth is, you are only alcoholic while you are acting in that manner. That is not to say that you cannot return to acting in that manner, you of course can. But it is to say that calling yourself a "recovering alcoholic" is a statement that you are still acting in that manner. And the subconscious mind takes this as a literal instruction for many people, which makes it harder to quit drinking.

When you identify as an alcoholic, you are instructing your subconscious mind to do what? Act in an alcoholic manner. The same is true for smokers and so forth. You can overcome alcoholism and leave it behind, and outgrow "being an alcoholic".

On it being a disease which we have no responsibility for:

Again, a set of learned escape behaviors and choice patterns that lead to not having to face or deal with or overcome fears and/or pain. Escape, essentially, from growing. Not a disease.

And when you tell someone they have no responsibility for their actions, guess what? They will not take responsibility for their actions in most cases, because they don't want to deal with the challenge of growing. The very same reason why they try to escape into drugs and alcohol.

And so what AA does, for many people, is enable them to stay stuck in a cycle of trying to sober up and failing (because of faulty beliefs and refusal to take real personal responsibility), making their self respect and self esteem worse, and making them stress even more. Which usually results in drinking again.

The support of your fellows is a great thing. It's powerful, and very helpful. But ultimately, YOU have to take the red pill here and take personal responsibility for YOUR actions, no matter how hard that is, because they are YOUR actions and they are based on YOUR choices - which in turn are the product of YOUR beliefs. YOU, and only you, are responsible for them and the fruits they bear. You chose them, you did them, and you have to deal with the consequences thereof.

So if AA works for you, great. Whatever works. But you are never going to stop battling and win until you kill the root causes: faulty thinking, faulty beliefs and refusal to fully take responsibility for yourself, your actions, your choices and your beliefs - and make them whatever they need to be to achieve your real goal in life.

I'm not against AA. I'm against some of their very dis-empowering methods and teachings.

thanks shannon for taking the time to write that detailed response.

i was sitting in a bit of fear today. a little uneasy being around a new group of people. i was ALSO around some people i DID know, and still felt uncomfortable.. that went away after i left the situation. not really sure what that was all about, it might have been A-1 depression (pheromone self effect), which i'm leaning more to being the cause of my discomfort.

(02-02-2016, 08:00 PM)eternitys_child Wrote: [ -> ]thanks shannon for taking the time to write that detailed response.

i was sitting in a bit of fear today. a little uneasy being around a new group of people. i was ALSO around some people i DID know, and still felt uncomfortable.. that went away after i left the situation. not really sure what that was all about, it might have been A-1 depression (pheromone self effect), which i'm leaning more to being the cause of my discomfort.

Hey buddy,

About the A1, I've used mones a lot for awhile now.

I can tell you this, you NEVER want to use A1 alone, as by itself it's effects are limited to women. It's more of an add-on to romantic/bonding mones ideally.

But, the other reason to not use it alone, or to use in lower doses further away from your face so you don't breathe it in as much, is depression. It's well known that while it can cause amazing clingy, bonding feelings in women, in men it can cause depression. So, my advice is, don't ever use it standalone again, use it WITH a romantic/bonding mone only. Apply it in different app areas than the mone it's being partnered with. Don't pile it all up in one spot I mean. And apply less of it, and further away from your face to get yourself more used to it. Then up the dosage slowly over time.

thanks catman, but the A-1 is a component of a couple different blends that i used in combination.

i'm pretty sure i'm going through a patch of resistance. i can't point my finger on it, but if i can describe my emotional state in one word, it's DLAFKJSDFLAKEWHLHKADFLKALKDCVNZNDFX

Hmm, you could just be more prone to A1 depression then. Maybe back off and use a smaller dose and build up over time? What mone are you using with the A1?

I had a bit of a lame day yesterday. And not much different today. Guess I'm in the same boat, bud. Jealous of Leo and his sound clip stunt haha, I don't feel anywhere near that open and fearless with girls yet.

Me too, guys. I feel pretty lame too since past couple of days, and been tired and unmotivated.

(02-03-2016, 11:54 PM)FrostedFake Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I'm telling you you're accent is so cool. I wish I had an indian accent haha.

Thanks, man. I always think of my voice to be too feminine, to be honest. haha

(02-03-2016, 09:56 PM)CatMan Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm, you could just be more prone to A1 depression then. Maybe back off and use a smaller dose and build up over time? What mone are you using with the A1?

I had a bit of a lame day yesterday. And not much different today. Guess I'm in the same boat, bud. Jealous of Leo and his sound clip stunt haha, I don't feel anywhere near that open and fearless with girls yet.

i've beceome a bit of an XS phanboy, after I found out steveO left AD to start his own. so taboo and cohesion are the A-1 containing products that I might have used a bit more of than necessary.

I haven't been able to hold up to nofap so my testosterone levels might be low, which is why i was sensitive to the A-1, but this is all speculation here.

Yeah, Cohesion is good for being buffered with A1. So, for you to STILL have depression with it, then you either used WAY more than you needed, or are particularily prone. Honestly, I'm almost positive that if you cut the dose down and moved the Cohesion app points away from your face, say on the back of your neck and your hands area, it should really improve. Try all that out and let me know, man. A1 is amazing, I got my first few hits with girls using it alongside my Liquid Alchemy Labs products. I only use LAL, Gary has been so good to me, I've been extremely happy and won't go anywhere else. Although, I respect SteveO and his products, you've made a good choice there.

I started using mones in the summer of '14, subs in September '14. Too bad I had too much fear to DO anything about the hits. I'm dealing with that now, though .