Subliminal Talk

Hmm, well it sounds like you're in a lot of turmoil right now.

Take it from someone who's achieved the zen state and frequently can enter "nirvana": it's not the answer either. In fact, NOTHING is.

There is no destination, and no answer. Your thoughts about mindfulness are spot on, so long as that, too, is not an "answer".

Mindfulness should be used to experience life more fully, NOT to escape the mundane.

There is an old zen saying: “Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”

Which is to say that the mundane is always with us, regardless of how enlightened we become.

There is also a story of a man who came to a zen master and asked him: "Master, what is it like to be enlightened?"

to which the master replied: "Oh it's just like everyday ordinary experience, except about 6 inches off the ground"

Now I'm just journaling for myself, but it just feels like I'm so alone in this, in a way. I have a few people who I could, and will, talk about how I feel about this, but I don't think any of them will have any real answers as to what I could do. Its all me, that's what I'm supposed to know. And even in general, people will just go to school and pick something that's supposed to be good for them, and they work hard to get enough cred to a job in that field and then they stick with it and are happy. Can't try anything else after that, because you don't have the experience in that new field. I could even get a job cleaning floors, because of my level of education and work history, so they wouldn't believe I'd stay in that job. And I wouldn't, of course. Entrepreneurial efforts make little sense where I live. But its all backwards. Like with age all the good women will either be taken, or, because dating is broken, they'll develop massive egos and become cynical. Seems like one can't be like a child anymore, in way, in anything, but were supposed to be fulfilled with this business of striving to get something that doesn't matter.

At the moment dance practice is really the only place I feel like I can be myself anymore. I have some connections but I don't have to chase anyone, no one's demanding stupid chores of me and I can just flow and try to do what I do a little better bit by bit. I feel My Girl / mltr/oltr/whatever also allows me to be who I want to be, so that's good too. I just want to drop all this useless complexity.

Feeling better btw, this is therapeutic. Gonna call a friend to have some coffee.

Thanks Sarge. Love it how you can answer to not what I'm talking about but what's behind it somehow. Should serve you well with women. Gonna order myself that ring today.

(02-27-2016, 01:29 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks Sarge. Love it how you can answer to not what I'm talking about but what's behind it somehow. Should serve you well with women. Gonna order myself that ring today.

You're welcome.

And that's a great idea, let me know when it arrives.

eternitys_child tipped about Brene Brown HERE, and I looked at one of her TED videos, HERE. Its really great; she talks about shame and also the differences between men and women.

She lists an American study, where it was asked "What do women/men need to do/be to conform to female/male norms?". The top answers for men were:
-Emotional control
-Primacy of work
-Pursuit of status
-Violence

Interesting how well that matches with AM6's main bullet points, no? SM users report being ready for violence, which is seen as a good thing. "Good with the ladies" is missing, but I think that's either more specific for our community, or its included in "Pursuit of status". There's a good quote in the video by a man who talked to Brown about shame and the women in his life. Great talk.

Though personally I've never really identified with "Primacy of work"; I think its sometimes as bad as "Primacy of women". But I'm European, so it could a cultural difference. That's something that hasn't always resonated with me about AM either.

Ted Talks are great. I watched that one a while ago, but something about what she was saying didn't sit right with me. I'll have to watch it again and discuss.

Ok, just finished watching. I love what she said about the man in the arena and how it doesn't matter that people criticise him. I also liked what she said about failure, and how you simply HAVE to fail to be successful.

As for shame, shame is interesting because it's a paradoxical thing in that if you can talk about things you are ashamed of, you transcend into someone who is not ashamed of those things.

However, shame is also an emotion. And as the best counselor I've ever had said "emotions are information". This is VITAL to understand, lest we be trapped in emotions forever.

Instead of thinking "oh god! I feel such shame!" and reacting to it by shrinking away. If we instead reacted to it by asking ourselves "what does this shame mean? What is my body trying to tell me about what I'm ashamed of?" and it will always come down to fear.

Shame is the emotion that tells us, if the community (or human species) knew the things we are ashamed of about ourselves, it would reject us and we would be alone and probably die. Social connectedness is a vital thing to a human beings survival. Further more, it's TRUE that doing some things will ostracize you.

As we can see in the video Wolverine posted (Here's the link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc6BecN-qKs)

In it you can see clearly that people DO ostracize the guy. Almost all of them leave his vicinity within seconds of him turning on the porn.

It makes no difference that they are most likely leaving because THEY are ashamed, all that matters is the result.

So, in the end, shame is a valuable emotion, because it can let us know if we should go down a certain path or not. This does not mean that we are unworthy of love or anything, it simply means "if I do X, I'll get Y".

You really have to see it this way. And I admire the aspirations of people like Brene Brown, but I do not believe that the answer to overcoming shame is to talk about it. Why? Because by talking about it we make it an entity (and therefore even MORE real), AND, in a twisted irony, if we talk about shame and tell other people they shouldn't be ashamed... guess what we're doing? That's right!

SHAMING PEOPLE FOR BEING ASHAMED!

The answer is not to try and remove the emotions, the answer is to work with them and recognize their value and merit, and then weigh them against our logic and reasoning.

So that's why I disagreed with the video.

But I like what she said about vulnerability as well, in that vulnerability is not weakness. Here's an example of someone being vulnerable:



Also, in poker, it's a well known fact that when you act strong you are weak.

But in the end, it all comes down to what gets you results. As we know, acting strong and "alpha" can help with some women. Does this mean those women are "weak"? Maybe, but the point is, do you want to be judgemental, or do you want to get results?

The zen of life is recognizing what works, and accepting it.

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]Instead of thinking "oh god! I feel such shame!" and reacting to it by shrinking away. If we instead reacted to it by asking ourselves "what does this shame mean? What is my body trying to tell me about what I'm ashamed of?" and it will always come down to fear.
....
You really have to see it this way. And I admire the aspirations of people like Brene Brown, but I do not believe that the answer to overcoming shame is to talk about it. Why? Because by talking about it we make it an entity (and therefore even MORE real), AND, in a twisted irony, if we talk about shame and tell other people they shouldn't be ashamed... guess what we're doing? That's right!

SHAMING PEOPLE FOR BEING ASHAMED!

What you're saying is likely very correct when talking about a community of people. Just considering my personal development though, which is all I was thinking about, I can't quite connect with that. Shame is really a new emotion for me, I'm only now starting to understand it. So I've read about it a little, and now I'm labeling it and making it an entity. Before I really just thought "I feel bad".

So, for example approaching women in a club setting, then having them brush me off and then I'm left standing there and since I can't be bothered to "properly" walk away from them a good distance but instead stop to look around where I'm standing, they'll kind of glance at me wondering if this icky guy is still hitting on them and why won't he leave.

My previous interpretation of that was "I guess I have a fear of something.. but it doesn't feel like fear.. maybe I just have low self-esteem (don't like myself)". Well, I didn't really ruminate on it like that, but if I did it might've sounded like that. Its that part about shame being an internalized thing that I think I've been missing. So now that I know a little more about shame, its becoming an entity on my radar that I can be aware of if I'm mindful. And if I become aware of it, I'll get to know by placing and keeping my attention on it (as opposed to shrinking away, like before when I didn't know I was doing it). Now its something I can work with, instead of me being unlovable or somehow wrong to my core. Now its more like fear or guilt or sorrow.

I do agree that I'd very likely be counterproductive talking to other people about their shame. I was thinking that I might talk with My Girl (known as G1 from now on) a little about shame. I'll just mention this thing I've been reading a little about for myself, like I've talked about my own personal fears - without any mentions of how common it is, or how bad it is that everyone else is so ashamed. Mostly I'm just interested in the differences between men and women; what she thinks about the female model and how does she see the men's model. We've had some interesting talks about men doing something and why I think they might be doing it, based on my own (partly gone) insecurities.

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]So, in the end, shame is a valuable emotion, because it can let us know if we should go down a certain path or not. This does not mean that we are unworthy of love or anything, it simply means "if I do X, I'll get Y".

I tend to agree with Shannon's approach of transferring the GSF emotional response to the logical centers of the brain. Meditation, therapy or clearing could be the "normal" approaches to doing that. For example, you talk to a girl, she doesn't like and leaves, you feel ashamed. X and Y. But that's still something you can improve on later, if you go against that feeling of shame.

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]But in the end, it all comes down to what gets you results. As we know, acting strong and "alpha" can help with some women. Does this mean those women are "weak"? Maybe, but the point is, do you want to be judgemental, or do you want to get results?

The zen of life is recognizing what works, and accepting it.

Well, being judgemental is no good. I'd know since I've been doing a lot of it. Actually from now on I'm going to be on the lookout for feeling judgemental, because its telling me something, like you said. But on the other hand there's the question if the result is worth the price. For example, if certain (likely quite hot) women require you to be something you don't like to be, is it worth it that you can stick your D into a warm hole for a short time, then scamper away because you're not interested in keeping the pretend up anymore and you're hungover, bored, etc. Then again if the goal is being happier and you notice you're happier without that crap, then that "works" too.

ION: Had a great day after that mess, and G1 is also coming over some time late at night. I was walking about and noticed it physically felt uncomfortable to keep my gaze at eye level and look at people. So I begun to treat it as a meditation, feeling the stress in my eye brows, forehead and eye lids. Later on, after lunch etc, I was walking around with no discomfort and really feeling good that I can now look at anyone in the eye and they will look away. Or not, in case of that one woman with the knowing smile.

Later on I was visiting my sister. Usually we'll talk for a bit and then pretty soon I'll start having the urge to go home already. This time I just sort of lost myself on her computer, looking at vacation stuff and almost forgetting I'm not home. Looking good.

(02-27-2016, 11:15 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]So, in the end, shame is a valuable emotion, because it can let us know if we should go down a certain path or not. This does not mean that we are unworthy of love or anything, it simply means "if I do X, I'll get Y".

I tend to agree with Shannon's approach of transferring the GSF emotional response to the logical centers of the brain. Meditation, therapy or clearing could be the "normal" approaches to doing that. For example, you talk to a girl, she doesn't like and leaves, you feel ashamed. X and Y. But that's still something you can improve on later, if you go against that feeling of shame.

Hmm, there seems to be a bit of mis communication. Let us say that

X = Action Taken

Y = Result

If we have shame, we believe that doing X means we are unlovable, and when Y happens, we see that as proof positive of that belief.

What I'm saying is that if we feel shame, we can very well realize it';s just a sort of intuition. Like "if I do X, Y is likely to occur".

WITHOUT shame, however, we can simply decide if we accept the result or not. A girl "rejecting" you (Y) is no big deal and doesn't mean you're unlovable, and it doesn't hurt you so why not approach (X) anyways?

However, watching porn in public (X) may cause you to get a "bad" reputation (Y). It STILL doesn't mean you're not lovable, but it DOES mean you should consider the result (Y) a bit more.

Hope that clears it up.

(02-27-2016, 11:15 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]But in the end, it all comes down to what gets you results. As we know, acting strong and "alpha" can help with some women. Does this mean those women are "weak"? Maybe, but the point is, do you want to be judgemental, or do you want to get results?

The zen of life is recognizing what works, and accepting it.

Well, being judgemental is no good. I'd know since I've been doing a lot of it. Actually from now on I'm going to be on the lookout for feeling judgemental, because its telling me something, like you said. But on the other hand there's the question if the result is worth the price. For example, if certain (likely quite hot) women require you to be something you don't like to be, is it worth it that you can stick your D into a warm hole for a short time, then scamper away because you're not interested in keeping the pretend up anymore and you're hungover, bored, etc. Then again if the goal is being happier and you notice you're happier without that crap, then that "works" too.

It all depends on what you're after. There's no right or wrong, but some things take more effort. Living requires effort and energy, but only you can decide if it's "worth it" to you or not.

If the goal is being happier, why not just take a drug? It'd sure be more efficient.

(02-27-2016, 12:07 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]Hope that clears it up.

Yeah, I think we agree fairly close on that one.

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]The zen of life is recognizing what works, and accepting it.

(02-27-2016, 12:07 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]It all depends on what you're after. There's no right or wrong, but some things take more effort. Living requires effort and energy, but only you can decide if it's "worth it" to you or not.

If the goal is being happier, why not just take a drug? It'd sure be more efficient.

My point was that, with both of your examples (having to be alpha, taking a drug), I got the impression that you're making it sound too clear cut. Sure, recognizing something that works and accepting gets you forward, but then you might realize this whole thing doesn't work and you accept that and scratch it and for for a while you're not sure what works, until you maybe find something that works, ... Having that crustal clear goal would help, but in my case it seems to goal is refined bit by bit through this process, so how could I accept what works for that end goal when its not even revealed to me yet?

(02-27-2016, 12:29 PM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]The zen of life is recognizing what works, and accepting it.

(02-27-2016, 12:07 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]It all depends on what you're after. There's no right or wrong, but some things take more effort. Living requires effort and energy, but only you can decide if it's "worth it" to you or not.

If the goal is being happier, why not just take a drug? It'd sure be more efficient.

My point was that, with both of your examples (having to be alpha, taking a drug), I got the impression that you're making it sound too clear cut. Sure, recognizing something that works and accepting gets you forward, but then you might realize this whole thing doesn't work and you accept that and scratch it and for for a while you're not sure what works, until you maybe find something that works, ... Having that crustal clear goal would help, but in my case it seems to goal is refined bit by bit through this process, so how could I accept what works for that end goal when its not even revealed to me yet?

Well that's definitely tougher then.

Throughout my journey in life and most apparently in pick up, I've had the same thing. What do I REALLY want? What if what I want conflicts with something else I want? Do I REALLY want that?

I just want to be happy, but I can be happy so many different ways, including just sitting at home alone, but do I want to sit at home alone? No. But if I have to go out, I'm not as happy, so what do I want? lol

It can be kind of maddening.

Tony Robbins says it comes down to values. If there is a conflict between your values, you will feel conflicted like this. The only answer is clarity. Find out what drives you and, most importantly, WHY. Once you figure out why, you can then focus on how and what, where I think most people focus on what and then how, leaving why as something that will be satisfied on it's own, when really, why is the birth of everything.

You don't go to the fridge and grab some food and then find out it satisfied your hunger.

You feel hungry (why) then you walk (how) to the fridge (what) and grab some food (more what lol)

(02-27-2016, 11:15 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]Instead of thinking "oh god! I feel such shame!" and reacting to it by shrinking away. If we instead reacted to it by asking ourselves "what does this shame mean? What is my body trying to tell me about what I'm ashamed of?" and it will always come down to fear.
....
You really have to see it this way. And I admire the aspirations of people like Brene Brown, but I do not believe that the answer to overcoming shame is to talk about it. Why? Because by talking about it we make it an entity (and therefore even MORE real), AND, in a twisted irony, if we talk about shame and tell other people they shouldn't be ashamed... guess what we're doing? That's right!

SHAMING PEOPLE FOR BEING ASHAMED!

What you're saying is likely very correct when talking about a community of people. Just considering my personal development though, which is all I was thinking about, I can't quite connect with that. Shame is really a new emotion for me, I'm only now starting to understand it. So I've read about it a little, and now I'm labeling it and making it an entity. Before I really just thought "I feel bad".

So, for example approaching women in a club setting, then having them brush me off and then I'm left standing there and since I can't be bothered to "properly" walk away from them a good distance but instead stop to look around where I'm standing, they'll kind of glance at me wondering if this icky guy is still hitting on them and why won't he leave.

My previous interpretation of that was "I guess I have a fear of something.. but it doesn't feel like fear.. maybe I just have low self-esteem (don't like myself)". Well, I didn't really ruminate on it like that, but if I did it might've sounded like that. Its that part about shame being an internalized thing that I think I've been missing. So now that I know a little more about shame, its becoming an entity on my radar that I can be aware of if I'm mindful. And if I become aware of it, I'll get to know by placing and keeping my attention on it (as opposed to shrinking away, like before when I didn't know I was doing it). Now its something I can work with, instead of me being unlovable or somehow wrong to my core. Now its more like fear or guilt or sorrow.

I do agree that I'd very likely be counterproductive talking to other people about their shame. I was thinking that I might talk with My Girl (known as G1 from now on) a little about shame. I'll just mention this thing I've been reading a little about for myself, like I've talked about my own personal fears - without any mentions of how common it is, or how bad it is that everyone else is so ashamed. Mostly I'm just interested in the differences between men and women; what she thinks about the female model and how does she see the men's model. We've had some interesting talks about men doing something and why I think they might be doing it, based on my own (partly gone) insecurities.

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]So, in the end, shame is a valuable emotion, because it can let us know if we should go down a certain path or not. This does not mean that we are unworthy of love or anything, it simply means "if I do X, I'll get Y".

I tend to agree with Shannon's approach of transferring the GSF emotional response to the logical centers of the brain. Meditation, therapy or clearing could be the "normal" approaches to doing that. For example, you talk to a girl, she doesn't like and leaves, you feel ashamed. X and Y. But that's still something you can improve on later, if you go against that feeling of shame.

(02-27-2016, 08:48 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]But in the end, it all comes down to what gets you results. As we know, acting strong and "alpha" can help with some women. Does this mean those women are "weak"? Maybe, but the point is, do you want to be judgemental, or do you want to get results?

The zen of life is recognizing what works, and accepting it.

Well, being judgemental is no good. I'd know since I've been doing a lot of it. Actually from now on I'm going to be on the lookout for feeling judgemental, because its telling me something, like you said. But on the other hand there's the question if the result is worth the price. For example, if certain (likely quite hot) women require you to be something you don't like to be, is it worth it that you can stick your D into a warm hole for a short time, then scamper away because you're not interested in keeping the pretend up anymore and you're hungover, bored, etc. Then again if the goal is being happier and you notice you're happier without that crap, then that "works" too.

2. Sarge, Shame is definitely NOT a valuable emotion for anything other than you need to heal that shame. Its designed to block off happiness in our life to control us by limiting our self-esteem. Shame blocks the solar plexus. And since they are driven by Unconcious forces it makes little sense to weigh them against our logical centers because that will probably lead to suppression and the emotions are irrational either way. Shame is a way for groups of people to know what to do in society but the person with no shame will attract others no matter what because of his force of personal power and magnetism due to his Self-Confidence and Esteem. Shame about watching porn is toxic societal programming that is used to control us because long ago man learned that by castrating an animal you can easily control it and they did this to their own children psychologically.

3. You need to recognize the difference between discernment and Judging. Judging is putting a label on something and whether or not we like it it's what are Subconcious does 24/7. If the person has negative energies and you are in tune with your intuition you will get a danger signal to get away from this person. Also we create are reality based on judging what is real or not. And lastly the universal law of karma is an example of how we are judged everyday. But as for conscious judging of other people, if you judge you will be judged do to having Guilt, shame and fear of the persons flaws which are an aspect of yourself you don't like so a mirror is shown in front of you.

Discernment is knowing who and what to give your trust, time and resources to in order to avoid bad situations and steer yourself into good ones.Its RIGHT THOUGHT on Bhuddas 8 fold path.

Day 25 or so

I switched to E2 as well. OGSF has been good to me, but I want to see what this does. Besides, OGSF seems so gently that I feel like there's room for more, so to speak.

A good deal of stuff has been happening, but its gone already so I don't feel like writing about it anymore. One part of it was that I revisited Robert Jordan's tapping videos last week and I finally realized how faster eft should be done. I always thought its about processing the feelings somehow, or working with beliefs, but its just states. Enter bad state, break bad state, anchor peaceful state. Repeat. When you're tapping yourself and saying "I release and let go", you're actually supposed to release and let go! Not hold it in your mind in any way, but let it go. Duh. The working on beliefs part then comes when you let go of the emotional charges tied in to the old memories or triggers, i.e. destroy the evidence that is supporting the belief. But in present any moment you're just working on states. For the 1st time in my life I even tapped on someone else (G1), successfully! I just told her we should test this thing. Very interesting and educational for me to see the same things that have been happening in me, happening on someone else. Like seeing how stress is caused by holding on to things, wanting to think and discuss about them instead of just allowing to release the emotional charge. Fearing to go into, and thus avoiding, bad memories and feelings because of not knowing how to get out of them. Just seeing the shifts. Very cool.

But, seems I'm going to have to let tapping go for the time being. I was liking it a lot because I felt like I was taking full responsibility of my own emotional state. Feel bad? Its me who's producing it, and I can change it. Don't necessarily even need tapping if I do NLP -style anchoring = "peace". I can do the tapping in my mind, changing states. Well. I guess I'll try to incorporate this attitude in with a more mindfulness -style approach to not interfere with E2 too much. But I'll be monitoring attachments, especially.

I know that I'd get good results from SM3 right now if I did it with tapping. That's because I've tried it twice now for 1-2 days and got instant results both times. I was thinking a lot about what it is that I want to aim towards, assuming I can let go of resistance with tapping. Of what's available now, I feel like SM is the best vibe for me. Not "its my best chance of getting laid", which it is, but the best vibe. I resonated a lot with what demozoo says about not letting her be on your level. If you're gonna be the leader, then its not "us". Its not forcing anything, but its not "considering her opinion" all the time either. It was unreal how I'd play SM for one night, and all the sudden G1 is basically hanging in my arm, talking about how we should do that and that and that and... and 2 women in my family even really making the effort to start and keep up conversation and get close even if they didn't quite know what to talk about. My confidence was instantly higher and I was touching men and women both younger and much older than me, directing them to do stuff. But I chose to stay with E2 because of clearing, loving, gratitude and liking my myself & others, plus dissolving anger. SM is power, women. If I don't like and love myself, I'm not going to get those things (permanently) by pursuing power. I do already like myself, but I'll see to which degree I can heal and "complete" myself before getting on the power subs again.

I'm reading the how to not give a fuck book and I'm going that way for now.

Today I'm feeling very good, positive and smiling. Light-hearted conversation. It'll be interesting if some anger comes up, like it did with Raz, because there has not been any of that on OGSF. There was a lot of it on ASC though. What I'm mostly worried about E2/OGSF is that I'll become this kind, not-in-the-least-bit-dangerous father-type family man archetype. With SM I felt more powerful and masculine, and I have this fear that if I'm too kind & loving then I won't "get" anything (mostly women, again.. booring..). As in, I fear people don't realize to give it enough value in comparison to just basic try-hard alpha behavior. But this is mostly in my head, since on OGSF I already felt and experienced a lot of sexiness and good times as the GSF that was blocking it was fading away.