Shannon's Journal Discussion Thread, Vol. 8

[Johannesbrst]

Sorry for stirring up such a debacle — that wasn’t my intention. I think the reason for my reaction was that the phrasing gave me associations I normally link with the Andrew Tate style of messaging, which feels very far from what I usually associate with you and your work. Just thought I’d share that in case it’s useful to keep in mind for the future, if you’d prefer to avoid others having a similar reaction.

[treble]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid269466

I am currently in the design phase for AM 7. I am also working on DMSI v5.1, which was only the addition of the DRS, and workingon the instructions for that. Since AM will take me months, I will be working on other titles in the mean time.

Next up is Optimal Physical Healing, because it's one of the runners up, and because I need it myself.

I'll be publishing DMSI v5.1 as soon as I get the instructions done.

Speaking of that, modeling reveals that DMSI and DMSI v5.0 and 5.1 actually need not two, but three sets of instructions: Normal, Hard Case and Extreme Hard Case, for everyone to get the best out of these programs. I'll be updating the instructions for v5.0 when I have the information.

@4Kingdoms How do you do quotes like this from Shannon's journal?

[Benjamin]

To quote something, if you look at the bar up the top with bold/italic/underline at the left side, on the right side, the 3rd from the right (speech bubble) you click that and paste what you're quoting inbetween it.

Or type [ quote ] (text) [ / quote ]

But take out the spaces, cos if I type it properly it'll just quote what I wrote.

Or for a name the first one would be [ quote=username ]

[treble]

@Benjamin Thanks. There's no quote button on Shannon's journal, so that's why I asked. So basically he does it manually with quote tags and copy paste?

[Frankie]

Let's say we're quoting this particular post:

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid228771

I think you guys are going to really like the next one I build also.

The code would look just like this:

[treble]

Hi Frankie, I understand that -- was just confirming that copy-paste is the only option. But thanks for providing the example.

Modern forum software often offers different ways to link or capture quotes from within or outside threads, but seems like it's an extremely manual process here if I want to externally quote from a restricted journal like Shannon's.

Thanks guys I got it.

[Benjamin]

To clarify something, "toxic masculinity" is actually a valid term, and it's original meaning was concerning masculine traits that cause a man to self harm as a result of taking things too far or in an unhealthy direction; for example, repression of his emotions to the degree that it is unhealthy for him, or being violent in a genuinely unnecessary and or abusive manner.  Unfortunately, this term has been subverted by certain groups to attempt to manipulate men into guilt/shame/fear of their own masculinity, which has only made things worse and muddied the water.

"Toxic masculinity" originally was primarily concerned with men taking things too far and causing themselves harm in the process.  Because of the subversion, it has become a useless term, IMO, because now it's definition does not match what it was originally focused on, and it has been weaponized. 

Alpha Male is not going to result in self harm to those who use it.  It is actually aimed at the reverse, bringing a man into self empowerment and helping him find the balance of self respect, sense of self worth, self esteem, refusal to be manipulated or taken advantage of, etc. Part of the early journey with that is going to be inner healing work.  So no worried about "toxic masculinity" in the original sense of the word.  However, those who define "toxic masculinity" in a way that is aimed at manipulating, shaming and or guilting men simply for being masculine or trying to focus into their masculinity will surely take issue with what AM7 is aimed to be.  After all, the real reason behind the  subversion of the term is to achieve and maintain control of men, and genuine masculinity is strongly in favor of a man being in control of himself, including what he does and believes, instead of handing that power to someone (or something) else (as seems to currently be the objective of previously mentioned certain groups).

I can agree that those guys going around acting tough in a fake way, trying to bash people cos they looked at them funny, telling everyone how tough they are, walking around staring everyone down while carrying carpets under their arms and such is negative definately.

But the second point is why I completely disregard any mention of 'toxic masculinity' now when someone uses it, because I struggle to think of an exception of when i've seen it used that it was actually legit and not used in the manipulative way.

So I don't know what the term should or could be, but I don't think it should be connected with 'masculinity' because how it's been used now is to try to ascribe it to masculinity in general.

I've seen completely nonsense articles like "Working out is toxic masculinity" and similar things. I've personally never seen the negative behaviours were talking about as being connected to masculinity at all, even when I did security, especially when I realized most of them were full of shit.

bringing a man into self empowerment and helping him find the balance of self respect, sense of self worth, self esteem, refusal to be manipulated or taken advantage of, etc. Part of the early journey with that is going to be inner healing work.

Very good.

I've noticed that when it comes to 'healing' (lets use emotional for this context) that it's hard to find or figure out how to use it towards building real masculinity, masculine energy and such because it's built from a feminine framework. Alot of it is useful for the emotional healing at times yes, but to apply it to build strength isn't really found too often.

[Tholt]

@Shannon

I am out of the loop since I have not been on the forum that  much but are you going to have a manifestation series of subs in 6G? 

Or will there be a single manifestation sub that will allow you to manifest whatever you want (opening within certain guidelines and restrictions)

[Catman]

Thank you for the new listening mode for V5.0/V5.1, @Shannon.

Is there an update for V5.0's new listening regimen, yet?

I ask because the listening cycle is back on in a couple hours or so and I tend to like to listen when the day change happens because I have had uninterrupted time then reliably.

I am working on the extreme cases now, but it is likely to be sometime tomorrow when I am finished.

Hello again, @Shannon, 

Just thought I'd check in to see where we're at with the new listening regimen cycle for 5.0?

I've held off listening today because things weren't wrapped up late last night so I wanted to start fresh with it on the new cycle.

Thanks a lot of it. I hope 5.1 is coming along well too!

[Shannon]

Sorry for stirring up such a debacle — that wasn’t my intention. I think the reason for my reaction was that the phrasing gave me associations I normally link with the Andrew Tate style of messaging, which feels very far from what I usually associate with you and your work. Just thought I’d share that in case it’s useful to keep in mind for the future, if you’d prefer to avoid others having a similar reaction.

There is a BIG difference between what I am and what Andrew Tate is.  He represents the classic "Alpha Male".  I am much more an "Ascendant Alpha".  Just because there is some overlap between the two does not mean one is the other.  Not even close.  But I am not afraid to say it when I see someone do something I don't respect.  Going in knowing there will be effort required and then giving up, I can't respect that.  

AM7 is going to be designed to help those guys who are green, but one of the biggest reasons we need something like AM7 is that a lot of these guys out there these days are just weak.  They're raised to be weak, they are told to be weak, they're sometimes even forced to be weak.  They're taught helplessness and giving up, instead of trying harder and figuring out a way forward.  That's the problem, and AM7 is aimed at being a solution.  But it's those very guys who need it most who are most likely to just say, "This is too hard." and walk away. No real effort, no determination, no resilience, no strength, no drive to succeed.  If it's "too hard" they just give up and whine and cry about it.

One of the biggest goals of AM7 is to help guys go from weaker than they could be to stronger.  Not physically, but mentally and emotionally.  Help them develop their drive to achieve and succeed, and develop resilience and the strength and fortitude to keep going when they want something, even though it hurts.

We no longer live in a world where a man has to "hunt and succeed or starve to death", but we do need males to be men instead of little boys when they're physical adults.  Not that long ago, in the United States, a boy was expected to start work at the age of 5 or 6 and he was expected to take a wife, BUILD HIS HOUSE, and start a family around the age of 12.  Now, we have guys in their 30's, 40'sand even a few in their 50's, who are mentally and emotionally children because they've never had to take responsibility for themselves, never mind anyone else.  Even if they are "parents".  Quotation marks, because most "parents" these days don't, and aren't, where I am.

Don't forget that first an foremost, an Ascendant Alpha leads HIMSELF.  Provides for HIMSELF.  Takes care of HIMSELF.  A classical Alpha needs followers, admirers, because his is a hierarchical reality, where he can only be dominant if someone else is less dominant, or not dominant.  He will eventually lose his ability to maintain his dominance, because a classical Alpha is dominant for primarily physical reasons.  As he ages, his physical ability to enforce that dominance will decline, and he will be challenged and replaced by someone younger and more physically capable of attaining and maintaining that position.

But an Ascendant Alpha does not need to dominate others, or have others follow him.  He is his own leader, master of himself, provider for himself, and he doesn't necessarily need or want to lead (or dominate) others.  Instead of leading and being dominant because he is physically capable, an Ascendant Alpha leads himself, and others will follow his lead (if he allows it) because they see his strength, and they admire him and what he is and has accomplished.  The classic Alpha leads with force and fear, and the Ascendant alpha leads through being worthy of admiration he didn't necessarily want or ask for.  He is just trying to be the best possible version of himself, typically for himself or himself and his family and friends.  

But both types of Alpha are going to be seeking strength in some form.  Classic alpha seeks physical strength primarily and strength of will, emotions, etc. are usually sought, but not primarily, Ascendant alpha seeks strength of other types more than physical.  Mental, emotional, wisdom, knowledge, ability, non-physical perseverance, etc. are common. 

Strength is to be respected, as long as it is not used to harm. Weakness is not respected.  This is universal truth.  So when a male starts a journey to become stronger, he gains respect, and as he succeeds, he gains respect.  But if and when he decides it is "too hard" and just gives up... he loses respect.  A LOT of respect.  That is what this whole thing is about.

[Shannon]

I am working on the extreme cases now, but it is likely to be sometime tomorrow when I am finished.

Hello again, @Shannon, 

Just thought I'd check in to see where we're at with the new listening regimen cycle for 5.0?

I've held off listening today because things weren't wrapped up late last night so I wanted to start fresh with it on the new cycle.

Thanks a lot of it. I hope 5.1 is coming along well too!

I'm working on it.  You'll know when I do.

[callie]

I think you’re conflating two things here. Getting to "zero" is not about becoming neutral or bland, it’s about removing the distortions of fear, guilt, shame, and other maladaptions so your authentic self can actually come through. When those layers are gone, expression isn’t flat, it becomes clear, intuitive, natural and often strongly masculine in men (and feminine in women). Masculinity is not something you "achieve". It’s not a state you reach by conquering something. Masculinity is an inherent part of every male. You don’t add masculinity on top of zero, rather the full expression of it will naturally be there once you let go of distortions that are born out of trauma in some form. Also, removing your baggage doesn’t automatically make you enlightened either, the two aren’t synonymous. Plenty of so called enlightened people still carry all kinds of dysfunction and trauma

Perhaps its just me that doesn't understand the idea of AM7. But if you try to "add on" polarity or masculinity over unresolved trauma, it risks becoming compensation. That’s why I question the idea of it. Just layering a "masculine" identity over unhealed parts will only create more toxic masculinity and ultimately more suffering to oneself imo

Your understanding is not correct here, Callie.  Removing the chains does not make a slave into a captain of industry.

As a man who has been a man for many decades, I can speak confidently that masculinity is both an inherent state and something that you achieve.  Masculinity is partly biological, and partly something that is learned from role models and environment.  If you remove the false and faulty teachings that attack and minimize a male's masculinity, he is left free to advance, but does not inherently or automatically become some magical expression of his natural potential for masculinity.  He must understand himself, and his potential, and work towards developing that part of himself.  It is often through challenge and difficulty that a boy (or an adult male) becomes a man in the sense of what I am referring to here.  

The point of Alpha Male training is to take a male from where he is when he starts, be that at 0 or somewhere along the lines past that on the scale of his potential for his own masculinity, and advance him to becoming an "acendant alpha male", which definition can be found here: 

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-...dant-Alpha

Ok, fair enough. Maybe I’m talking about a different thing here. Just to clarify what I mean by trauma though, as its broader than just the common clinical view. When I say trauma, I don’t mean false and faulty teachings, although those often fall away as a consequense. I’m talking about all the blockages and patterns, whether small or big, that diminish your felt sense of self and distort the natural expression of who you are. Not just blockages accumulated in this lifetime, but also those carried through genetic memory in our ancestral lineage. I realize that may sound a bit abstract, and from what I know of you, you may not agree with that perspective. But I’ve seen a few people clear it completely, which is no small task, and the result is how I would personally define someone as a "real alpha" (though I find the label kinda cringe to put on humans), with unshakable confidence and groundedness. That said, I can admit there’s probably more to what you call an “ascendant alpha”

[Shannon]

Your understanding is not correct here, Callie.  Removing the chains does not make a slave into a captain of industry.

As a man who has been a man for many decades, I can speak confidently that masculinity is both an inherent state and something that you achieve.  Masculinity is partly biological, and partly something that is learned from role models and environment.  If you remove the false and faulty teachings that attack and minimize a male's masculinity, he is left free to advance, but does not inherently or automatically become some magical expression of his natural potential for masculinity.  He must understand himself, and his potential, and work towards developing that part of himself.  It is often through challenge and difficulty that a boy (or an adult male) becomes a man in the sense of what I am referring to here.  

The point of Alpha Male training is to take a male from where he is when he starts, be that at 0 or somewhere along the lines past that on the scale of his potential for his own masculinity, and advance him to becoming an "acendant alpha male", which definition can be found here: 

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-...dant-Alpha

Ok, fair enough. Maybe I’m talking about a different thing here. Just to clarify what I mean by trauma though, as its broader than just the common clinical view. When I say trauma, I don’t mean false and faulty teachings, although those often fall away as a consequense. I’m talking about all the blockages and patterns, whether small or big, that diminish your felt sense of self and distort the natural expression of who you are. Not just blockages accumulated in this lifetime, but also those carried through genetic memory in our ancestral lineage. I realize that may sound a bit abstract, and from what I know of you, you may not agree with that perspective. But I’ve seen a few people clear it completely, which is no small task, and the result is how I would personally define someone as a "real alpha" (though I find the label kinda cringe to put on humans), with unshakable confidence and groundedness. That said, I can admit there’s probably more to what you call an “ascendant alpha”

Your experience of having seen people clear it completely, and have the result be what you would call "real alpha", is valid.  But that does not take into account a number of factors.

Before I go further, let me point out that we may be dealing with different cultures here and different experiences and points of view. 

What I am dealing with in a lot of the guys who show up wanting to use AM6 (and version 7) is primarily guys who have been afforded no male father figure, and were raised by a woman who may or may not have been a feminist (and sometimes, the man hating variety), in a culture that increasingly vilifies men for simply being alive, not just for being men.  

They sometimes have deeply held and deeply faulty beliefs about what masculinity is, and how acceptable masculinity is, which are at best confused and at worst, self destructive for a man to hold.  They're typically ruled by fear, guilt and shame, and they often have been brainwashed by social media into a state of gridlock, holding not just faulty and unhealthy beliefs, but contradictory beliefs as well.  

These guys, if we can manage to break them out of their jail cell of these faulty beliefs, often have little to no social skills or experience, little to no relational skils and experience, and sexual skills and experience are even less in a lot of cases.  And who can blame them, in a day and age where every other TikTok is a woman complaining about how creepy and cringe a guy was for either trying to be polite, or express interest in her?

If we manage to remove the beliefs that hold them back, we now have the freedom to make progress, but they often have little to no understanding of what masculinity is, how it is achieved or expressed, and what to do with it.  They see guys like Andrew Tate and think that's what they should aim for, which only gets them entangled in more controversy and results in a lot of them having more problems, because they didn't have the self development to handle the challenge from society that that path produces.  Sort of like throwing a 10 year old boy onto an active battlefield with a loaded handgun he hasn't learned how to use and telling him to "hit the ground running".

A person with a physically male body, who is naturally and genetically male, is going to be male biologically, but will not necessarily be a "man" - never mind an "alpha" - unless he is guided in how to.  He will have the hormones and the body parts, but without the role model, he'll be lost, even if we do get rid of those faulty beliefs.  Give him the wrong role models, and he'll end up being extremely feminine, even if he wouldn't have been otherwise, because "monkey see, monkey do".  That's how humans learn.  Give that same boy a good strong, positive masculine role model, and he can grow into being a good, strong, positive male role model.  But that doesn't just happen because he is male and has had the faulty beliefs and traumas removed.

That's the point I am making.  The Alpha Male Training Set is designed and intended to act as an enhancement to a male role model, or a replacement for a missing or deeply damaged male role model.  Some of these guys show up with no father figure, and others have fathers who are more feminine than most women these days.  A boy isn't going to learn how to embody a healthy masculine role if he's watching a "father" be dominated by his mother all the time, and he is weak, helpless and unable or unwilling to express masculine traits out of guilt, shame or fear.

[4Kingdoms]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid269518

I am having a very hard time getting a lock on the run time for DMSI v5 on extreme hard cases.

Not terribly surprising. Bear with me.