Shannon's Journal Discussion Thread, Vol. 8

[Shannon]

I did two months of OSC, and I started my break about a week ago. How long do I have to wait until I can start HOWL v2 for transitioning from one 6G product to another? Is it two weeks?

1-2 weeks.  2 is better, but not always necessary.

[Shannon]

@Shannon



I read your journal and saw that you have EPHRA in preparation for July. I’d like to offer some feedback as well as share a few ideas. First off, have you ever considered creating a sub similar to UH, or perhaps adding a physical healing component to the next version of EPHRA, specifically aimed at helping regulate the nervous system?



I ask because UH has been the only sub I’ve been able to use long term without crashing into a deep autonomic freeze state. Other subs tend to leave me more dysregulated than before. I believe the physical healing aspect of UH provided a sense of safety on a bodily level, which allowed me to actually process emotions instead of shutting down and dissociating from them. I’ve experienced similar benefits from purely physical healing subs as well, which reinforces this idea. Of course there could be other factors involved in why UH worked so well for me but I think this is a major one



The last sub I used was OGSFv3, but I found it too intense for my system. My nervous system has been chronically dysregulated for the past few years and even the masked format eventually led to deeper dissociation, causing my system to shut down. I believe this reaction is primarily due to deep, existential shame and hopelessness rooted in trauma being triggered, without enough internal safety to process it, so my system goes into survival mode



That’s why I believe a future version of EPHRA, enhanced with a physical healing component and additional elements to help regulate the nervous system and create a deeper sense of safety, could be helpful to anyone, but especially those with complex trauma from childhood. Trauma experts often emphasize that the body needs to feel safe before it can release and process trauma. So I believe this kind of approach could be transformative for people with complex trauma, such as CPTSD. 



It might also be helpful if healing subs included two sets of listening instructions, one for individuals with average to moderate trauma, and another for those with complex trauma and/or early attachment issues that go back as far as birth



What are your thoughts on these ideas?

UH was a nightmare.  It forced a specific level of physical healing vs emotional healing, and it became unusable for a lot of people as a result.  Instead of being the "Swiss army knife" I had hoped, t was causing issues because there was too much of one, which couldn't be adjusted if you wanted the other.

I have found myself very not impressed with "experts" in the last 5-7 years.  I have also found that a lot of the mainstream conclusions about things in the realms of psychology and related fields are actually incorrect.  My repeated experience has been that I do the R&D and experiments, conclude they're partially or completely wrong, and then 2 to 10 years later, someone publishes a book proclaiming this amazing new breakthrough that turns out to only be what I discovered years previous, which everyone ignored because mainstream science/psychology said otherwise.  So I'm not going to just believe or accept whatever "the experts" say, especially about something like trauma.

My current research, development and experimentation has been strongly pointing to that trauma is almost entirely an emotional and somewhat mental phenomenon, and the physical aspects of it are the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  The only areas where I have found significant physical correlation resulting are in the brain itself, which is also a result of the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  

I if your belief in what "the experts" have to say is making that belief something you are trying to make true at a subconscious level, and thus making harder to deal with, defeating your efforts to do otherwise, and using as an escape mechanism to hold yourself in place?

When the time comes, I will be looking at a subliminal specifically for PTSD and complex PTSD.  In the mean time, may I suggest you try using Brain Optimizer, if you have not already?  It may be helpful in changing the pathways you have developed based on conscious and subconscious trauma responses.

[callie]

@callie What do you mean by “freeze state”? How do you know OGSF3 isn’t just working through things despite feeling like it isn’t? Did you finish OGSF3 and if not, why did you quit? Were you concerned for your safety, the pain was too overwhelming, or you just lost hope?

When I say '"freeze state", I’m referring to a dorsal vagal response, a physiological shutdown of the nervous system, not just discomfort or emotional resistance. This is part of Polyvagal Theory, which explains how the body responds to overwhelming threat by moving beyond fight or flight into a state of collapse or immobilization

It’s not the same as emotional detox or painful growth. In freeze, the system isn’t processing anything, it’s going offline to survive. This often shows up as dissociation, fatigue, numbness and a deep loss of motivation or will, along with a range of other physical symptoms that reflect the body’s shutdown response. The body is conserving energy because it doesn’t feel safe. If you haven’t lived this experience, it’s very hard to relate to

That’s why I stepped away from OGSF3. Not because I was avoiding growth, but because trying to push through that state is making me more dysregulated, not less. Healing can’t happen when the nervous system is shut down. It’s taken me over five years to understand this, so this isn’t just a belief I use to comfort myself. It’s something I’ve had to learn through lived experience, immense suffering, trial and error, lots of reflection and research

See this picture of what freeze is: https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/6fba0a2.../rs=w:1280

[callie]

UH was a nightmare.  It forced a specific level of physical healing vs emotional healing, and it became unusable for a lot of people as a result.  Instead of being the "Swiss army knife" I had hoped, t was causing issues because there was too much of one, which couldn't be adjusted if you wanted the other.

I have found myself very not impressed with "experts" in the last 5-7 years.  I have also found that a lot of the mainstream conclusions about things in the realms of psychology and related fields are actually incorrect.  My repeated experience has been that I do the R&D and experiments, conclude they're partially or completely wrong, and then 2 to 10 years later, someone publishes a book proclaiming this amazing new breakthrough that turns out to only be what I discovered years previous, which everyone ignored because mainstream science/psychology said otherwise.  So I'm not going to just believe or accept whatever "the experts" say, especially about something like trauma.

My current research, development and experimentation has been strongly pointing to that trauma is almost entirely an emotional and somewhat mental phenomenon, and the physical aspects of it are the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  The only areas where I have found significant physical correlation resulting are in the brain itself, which is also a result of the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  

I if your belief in what "the experts" have to say is making that belief something you are trying to make true at a subconscious level, and thus making harder to deal with, defeating your efforts to do otherwise, and using as an escape mechanism to hold yourself in place?

When the time comes, I will be looking at a subliminal specifically for PTSD and complex PTSD.  In the mean time, may I suggest you try using Brain Optimizer, if you have not already?  It may be helpful in changing the pathways you have developed based on conscious and subconscious trauma responses.

Ironically the conventional view is actually that trauma is just mental or emotional, that it’s “in your head”, and with enough willpower, courage and persistence, you can push through it. I used to believe that myself. I followed that mindset for years, pushing through shutdown, emotional collapse and physiological distress, telling myself it was just “mental resistance” or fear of change.Sometimes it was, and it could be overcome, absolutely. But most of the times, it was not. Honestly, that belief contributed heavily to why my nervous system is so dysregulated now. It’s an extremely limited way to relate to trauma and I learned the hard way that it doesn't work. At least not for complex trauma

My current research, development and experimentation has been strongly pointing to that trauma is almost entirely an emotional and somewhat mental phenomenon, and the physical aspects of it are the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  The only areas where I have found significant physical correlation resulting are in the brain itself, which is also a result of the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma

Respectfully, but this just isn’t accurate. This viewpoint reflects a more traditional, top-down model of trauma, one that assumes if we resolve the mental and emotional roots the body will follow. That might hold for some people with mild trauma, but for those with complex, developmental, or early attachment trauma this approach tends to break down. The nervous system doesn't always respond to logic or emotional insight, it responds to safety. It’s not that the body follows the mind,in complex trauma, the two are deeply intertwined. If the body doesn’t feel safe, the mind can’t resolve what it needs to. And without directly addressing physiological states like freeze, collapse or chronic hypervigilance, emotional or cognitive work alone often falls short

Modern trauma science, including Somatic Experiencing, Polyvagal theory and the clinical work of people like Bessel van der Kolk and Pat Ogden, has shown that trauma is stored not just in thoughts or emotions, but in the body itself. In muscle tension, fascia, breath patterns, posture, heart rate variability, vagus nerve tone, and even immune function. It’s not downstream from the mind, it’s a co-equal system. Trauma is fundamentally biopsychosocial, not just emotional or mental. Approaches like TRE (Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises) which use nothing but the body’s natural tremor mechanism to release stored tension, have shown that deep trauma, even intergenerational or developmental, can begin to resolve without conscious processing at all. Just think about that, if trauma were only emotional or mental, as you suggested, that kind of somatic resolution wouldn’t even be possible

Just to be clear, the ideas I’m referring to aren’t passing theories. They’re part of an evolving, evidence based shift in how trauma is understood and treated across psychology, psychiatry, and neuroscience, and they’re producing real results, especially for people who haven’t been helped by traditional approaches

That’s why I believe UH worked well for me. It seemed to create a felt sense of somatic safety which allowed for emotional processing to unfold without triggering dissociation. When that foundation isn’t in place, and the system feels overwhelmed, the result isn’t growth, it’s shutdown

I also want to clarify that when I mentioned “trauma experts”, I wasn’t referring to mainstream media psychologists or conventional talk therapy. I actually agree with you that many of those frameworks are outdated or even harmful. I’m referring to people like Stephen Porges, Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk, individuals who’ve spent decades working directly with trauma in clinical settings, often outside of mainstream psychology, and whose work is heavily informed by neuroscience and somatic research

I don’t know how to create subliminals, otherwise I’d try building something like this myself. But you do. And if you apply these principles, I genuinely believe they could make a real difference for people with trauma, especially those dealing with complex or developmental issues. I hope this doesn’t come across as me trying to argue with you. One of the reasons I’m going on about it is because I genuinely believe in your expertise with subliminals, and I really think that if you explore these ideas and apply them, they would work better

[Shannon]

UH was a nightmare.  It forced a specific level of physical healing vs emotional healing, and it became unusable for a lot of people as a result.  Instead of being the "Swiss army knife" I had hoped, t was causing issues because there was too much of one, which couldn't be adjusted if you wanted the other.



I have found myself very not impressed with "experts" in the last 5-7 years.  I have also found that a lot of the mainstream conclusions about things in the realms of psychology and related fields are actually incorrect.  My repeated experience has been that I do the R&D and experiments, conclude they're partially or completely wrong, and then 2 to 10 years later, someone publishes a book proclaiming this amazing new breakthrough that turns out to only be what I discovered years previous, which everyone ignored because mainstream science/psychology said otherwise.  So I'm not going to just believe or accept whatever "the experts" say, especially about something like trauma.



My current research, development and experimentation has been strongly pointing to that trauma is almost entirely an emotional and somewhat mental phenomenon, and the physical aspects of it are the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  The only areas where I have found significant physical correlation resulting are in the brain itself, which is also a result of the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  



I if your belief in what "the experts" have to say is making that belief something you are trying to make true at a subconscious level, and thus making harder to deal with, defeating your efforts to do otherwise, and using as an escape mechanism to hold yourself in place?



When the time comes, I will be looking at a subliminal specifically for PTSD and complex PTSD.  In the mean time, may I suggest you try using Brain Optimizer, if you have not already?  It may be helpful in changing the pathways you have developed based on conscious and subconscious trauma responses.

Ironically the conventional view is actually that trauma is just mental or emotional, that it’s “in your head”, and with enough willpower, courage and persistence, you can push through it. I used to believe that myself. I followed that mindset for years, pushing through shutdown, emotional collapse and physiological distress, telling myself it was just “mental resistance” or fear of change.Sometimes it was, and it could be overcome, absolutely. But most of the times, it was not. Honestly, that belief contributed heavily to why my nervous system is so dysregulated now. It’s an extremely limited way to relate to trauma and I learned the hard way that it doesn't work. At least not for complex trauma

My current research, development and experimentation has been strongly pointing to that trauma is almost entirely an emotional and somewhat mental phenomenon, and the physical aspects of it are the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma.  The only areas where I have found significant physical correlation resulting are in the brain itself, which is also a result of the downstream from the emotional and mental trauma

Respectfully, but this just isn’t accurate. This viewpoint reflects a more traditional, top-down model of trauma, one that assumes if we resolve the mental and emotional roots the body will follow. That might hold for some people with mild trauma, but for those with complex, developmental, or early attachment trauma this approach tends to break down. The nervous system doesn't always respond to logic or emotional insight, it responds to safety. It’s not that the body follows the mind,in complex trauma, the two are deeply intertwined. If the body doesn’t feel safe, the mind can’t resolve what it needs to. And without directly addressing physiological states like freeze, collapse or chronic hypervigilance, emotional or cognitive work alone often falls short



Modern trauma science, including Somatic Experiencing, Polyvagal theory and the clinical work of people like Bessel van der Kolk and Pat Ogden, has shown that trauma is stored not just in thoughts or emotions, but in the body itself. In muscle tension, fascia, breath patterns, posture, heart rate variability, vagus nerve tone, and even immune function. It’s not downstream from the mind, it’s a co-equal system. Trauma is fundamentally biopsychosocial, not just emotional or mental. Approaches like TRE (Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises) which use nothing but the body’s natural tremor mechanism to release stored tension, have shown that deep trauma, even intergenerational or developmental, can begin to resolve without conscious processing at all. Just think about that, if trauma were only emotional or mental, as you suggested, that kind of somatic resolution wouldn’t even be possible



Just to be clear, the ideas I’m referring to aren’t passing theories. They’re part of an evolving, evidence based shift in how trauma is understood and treated across psychology, psychiatry, and neuroscience, and they’re producing real results, especially for people who haven’t been helped by traditional approaches



That’s why I believe UH worked well for me. It seemed to create a felt sense of somatic safety which allowed for emotional processing to unfold without triggering dissociation. When that foundation isn’t in place, and the system feels overwhelmed, the result isn’t growth, it’s shutdown



I also want to clarify that when I mentioned “trauma experts”, I wasn’t referring to mainstream media psychologists or conventional talk therapy. I actually agree with you that many of those frameworks are outdated or even harmful. I’m referring to people like Stephen Porges, Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk, individuals who’ve spent decades working directly with trauma in clinical settings, often outside of mainstream psychology, and whose work is heavily informed by neuroscience and somatic research



I don’t know how to create subliminals, otherwise I’d try building something like this myself. But you do. And if you apply these principles, I genuinely believe they could make a real difference for people with trauma, especially those dealing with complex or developmental issues. I hope this doesn’t come across as me trying to argue with you. One of the reasons I’m going on about it is because I genuinely believe in your expertise with subliminals, and I really think that if you explore these ideas and apply them, they would work better

To be sure, not all of my theories are accurate, or completely accurate, especially when they are unfinished in terms of development.  I have not done the in-depth R&D to fully develop a theory of deep trauma yet, so I can only tell you what I have to work with so far.  I am happy to read what others have come up with, but I never take anything at face value.  I always try to determine if they have made mistakes, or missed something, and if so, what mistake, and what has been missed.  

By the way, before I continue, last night when I replied, I was very annoyed at the end of a very frustrating day that had nothing to do with you, so if my post seemed snappish or otherwise less than pleasant, my apologies.  That was not aimed at you.

I have received  some feedback since then in private that UH worked well for at least one other serious trauma sufferer, so I may simply have not had anyone of that camp, or not enough people in that camp, report.  It is worth considering, and I'm happy to add it if it will be helpful and useful.

Ultimately, my goal is to be helpful and create tools that people can successfully use to make a positive difference in their lives.  That often leaves me with the most challenging problems, because the easy ones have been solved.  This often requires extensive R&D and testing, heavy on the research and testing.  We haven't finished with that right now.  So I'm not making any claims to being right as to my current theories.  I'm just stating what I have seen so far that held up to scrutiny.  However, this has not been focused on extreme or complex trauma.

At some point, once things settle down a little from trying to build everything that everyone wants all at once, I'll have a chance to focus on that more and develop my approach better.

[4Kingdoms]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid268827

I have finished extracting the script components of DMSI v4.0 from the 5.9G skeleton script. I have also determined that not only should v5.0 include the full FRM, but it of course must be upgraded to FRM v6.1. That has also been done.

Now I have to start working on verifying which parts that were extracted actually need to be included (they might have been replicated in the 6G skeleton script in a few cases), and then I have to develop them into 6G standard scripting convention. That last one is going to take more time than I thought, because the amount of script that I extracted that belongs specifically to DMSI is about 2x more than what I thought it would be.

So done with that for today. Now working on a program I can publish this month.

For those who celebrate the 4th of July, Happy 4th! But please don't be like my neighbors, rude and inconsiderate about your fireworks. I have been listening to fireworks for the last 5 days previous to the 4th of July, and I will likely have to deal with them until 2-3 weeks from now, because my neighbors are extremely selfish, thoughtless, careless and rude, and our city is run by some very low IQ people who prioritize landscaping to make the city look pretty (and of course extensive maintenance) over things like funding the police department (not joking). Our police force also doesn't seem to really care much about enforcing the law in a lot of cases, probably because they're constantly overwhelmed since they're only half or less the number of officers our city actually needs. (I hope that's why, at least.)

Please be safe and considerate with your fireworks and your partying. Remember that fireworks disrupt other people's sleep, children ability to sleep, children's ability to calm down, people with PTSD (including veterans) and frighten pets. Don't be one of those people who has turned the whole month of July into a nightmare for my city.

[Frosted]

@callie What do you mean by “freeze state”? How do you know OGSF3 isn’t just working through things despite feeling like it isn’t? Did you finish OGSF3 and if not, why did you quit? Were you concerned for your safety, the pain was too overwhelming, or you just lost hope?

When I say '"freeze state", I’m referring to a dorsal vagal response, a physiological shutdown of the nervous system, not just discomfort or emotional resistance. This is part of Polyvagal Theory, which explains how the body responds to overwhelming threat by moving beyond fight or flight into a state of collapse or immobilization

It’s not the same as emotional detox or painful growth. In freeze, the system isn’t processing anything, it’s going offline to survive. This often shows up as dissociation, fatigue, numbness and a deep loss of motivation or will, along with a range of other physical symptoms that reflect the body’s shutdown response. The body is conserving energy because it doesn’t feel safe. If you haven’t lived this experience, it’s very hard to relate to

That’s why I stepped away from OGSF3. Not because I was avoiding growth, but because trying to push through that state is making me more dysregulated, not less. Healing can’t happen when the nervous system is shut down. It’s taken me over five years to understand this, so this isn’t just a belief I use to comfort myself. It’s something I’ve had to learn through lived experience, immense suffering, trial and error, lots of reflection and research

See this picture of what freeze is: https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/6fba0a2.../rs=w:1280

That sounds a lot like how I used to be ngl.

[StridingStrider]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid268827

I have finished extracting the script components of DMSI v4.0 from the 5.9G skeleton script. I have also determined that not only should v5.0 include the full FRM, but it of course must be upgraded to FRM v6.1. That has also been done.

Now I have to start working on verifying which parts that were extracted actually need to be included (they might have been replicated in the 6G skeleton script in a few cases), and then I have to develop them into 6G standard scripting convention. That last one is going to take more time than I thought, because the amount of script that I extracted that belongs specifically to DMSI is about 2x more than what I thought it would be.

So done with that for today. Now working on a program I can publish this month.

Huzzar! Here's to the future DMSI 

[London1]

@callie What do you mean by “freeze state”? How do you know OGSF3 isn’t just working through things despite feeling like it isn’t? Did you finish OGSF3 and if not, why did you quit? Were you concerned for your safety, the pain was too overwhelming, or you just lost hope?

When I say '"freeze state", I’m referring to a dorsal vagal response, a physiological shutdown of the nervous system, not just discomfort or emotional resistance. This is part of Polyvagal Theory, which explains how the body responds to overwhelming threat by moving beyond fight or flight into a state of collapse or immobilization

It’s not the same as emotional detox or painful growth. In freeze, the system isn’t processing anything, it’s going offline to survive. This often shows up as dissociation, fatigue, numbness and a deep loss of motivation or will, along with a range of other physical symptoms that reflect the body’s shutdown response. The body is conserving energy because it doesn’t feel safe. If you haven’t lived this experience, it’s very hard to relate to

That’s why I stepped away from OGSF3. Not because I was avoiding growth, but because trying to push through that state is making me more dysregulated, not less. Healing can’t happen when the nervous system is shut down. It’s taken me over five years to understand this, so this isn’t just a belief I use to comfort myself. It’s something I’ve had to learn through lived experience, immense suffering, trial and error, lots of reflection and research

See this picture of what freeze is: https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/6fba0a2.../rs=w:1280

So how are we supposed to overcome guilt shame and fear? Aren't these the things that are responsible for this freeze state in the first place?

[kserenyi]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid268798

This is what my plate currently looks like:

July's releases: In active development/in prep for development
DMSI v5: In active development
AM7: In prep for development
Anti-Aging: In R&D
X4A-Premium: In development
Money Magnet: In prep for development
EHPRA 6G: In prep for development

Just curious: Will the new Money Magnet program be the same as the version included with UMS 3.1, or will it be an even more updated version?

[callie]

When I say '"freeze state", I’m referring to a dorsal vagal response, a physiological shutdown of the nervous system, not just discomfort or emotional resistance. This is part of Polyvagal Theory, which explains how the body responds to overwhelming threat by moving beyond fight or flight into a state of collapse or immobilization

It’s not the same as emotional detox or painful growth. In freeze, the system isn’t processing anything, it’s going offline to survive. This often shows up as dissociation, fatigue, numbness and a deep loss of motivation or will, along with a range of other physical symptoms that reflect the body’s shutdown response. The body is conserving energy because it doesn’t feel safe. If you haven’t lived this experience, it’s very hard to relate to

That’s why I stepped away from OGSF3. Not because I was avoiding growth, but because trying to push through that state is making me more dysregulated, not less. Healing can’t happen when the nervous system is shut down. It’s taken me over five years to understand this, so this isn’t just a belief I use to comfort myself. It’s something I’ve had to learn through lived experience, immense suffering, trial and error, lots of reflection and research

See this picture of what freeze is: https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/6fba0a2.../rs=w:1280

So how are we supposed to overcome guilt shame and fear? Aren't these the things that are responsible for this freeze state in the first place?

If your system has the capacity to move through guilt, shame, and fear without shutting down, then OGSFv3 will probably work just fine if you give it time. But if it continously pushes you into freeze, the issue isn’t resistance, it’s overwhelm. And in my experience, that needs a different approach

[samba99]

Finally the time for DMSI is here. Instant buy for sure

[Sky]

@Shannon Will you be upgrading Women Magnet and Sex Magnet to 6G after AM7? I want long term programming and really want to run AM7 and then women magnet?

[Shannon]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid268798

Just curious: Will the new Money Magnet program be the same as the version included with UMS 3.1, or will it be an even more updated version?

Probably.  We have to see how AM7 does first.