myth's Belated DMSI 3.1 Journal

[SargeMaximus]

MONSTER POST AHEAD!!!


Seriously, just skip the parts that aren't relevant to you (the reader).

Now we got two guys without experience piping up about how women behave.

Guys, leave the theorizing to the people with experience. Other than that, obviously report on what you feel is holding you back from experiencing what others are. But don't lean back and act like you know what it actually takes. Leave that to the guys who do.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I just draw the line at statements being made as fact when you have no idea what you're talking about, for real.

Perhaps we have a different definition of initiate.

I've been approached by women my whole life (mostly while on DMSI, thanks Shannon! But also before then) so yeah, they make the first move BUT (and this is a big but) does that lead to sex? No.

What I meant was, the girl won't ask you out, won't take her clothes off for you, won't drag you into her bedroom.

Now, if you're saying that has happened to you, then great! Guess I was wrong. Still waiting for that to happen for me however.

The question then becomes: how does that happen? What's different between RTBoss's experience and Sarge's experience? What is Sarge missing? What could DMSI bring to the table for guys like Sarge to get results like RT?

It's about improving the program.

Sarge, I'm going to quickly chime in here and say that during my 3.1 run, I was seduced quite a few times. I won't go into the number of women I slept with while on 3.1, what I will say is this concept of having to be good with women to see success with DMSI is somewhat baseless.

If you want to be seduced, it's an easy answer. You need to be sexually comfortable in your own skin. That's it. If you stop thinking about sex as this elusive thing that stands outside of your reality, and begin to embrace your own sexual energy, women will respond to that.

Picking up women isn't that hard. It's actually quite easy. Don't get caught up in your own head, don't get desperate for an interaction or a result, enjoy being in your own skin and embrace your own sexual energy.

Women and sex are just byproducts. I can't tell you how easy it's been for me to get a woman into bed. Most of the time because I just didn't give a shit. I let myself experience my own sexuality. I embrace that. I don't hide behind it. A woman will either respond to me or she won't. Women that appreciate a sexual man will respond. Women who do not, will not. There is no one woman ever.

And I don't try to make small talk or keep a conversation going. Most of the time I'm pretty aloof. Usually it just falls into my lap and I let things go where they may.

It's a mindset more than anything else. It has nothing to do with being good or bad. Change your mindset, and everything else changes with it.

Thanks, but this doesn't change anything for me. It's too vague, and I can't possibly glean anything from it except "don't try".

Cool.

Did that for 24 years, no sex.

Now we got two guys without experience piping up about how women behave.

Guys, leave the theorizing to the people with experience. Other than that, obviously report on what you feel is holding you back from experiencing what others are. But don't lean back and act like you know what it actually takes. Leave that to the guys who do.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I just draw the line at statements being made as fact when you have no idea what you're talking about, for real.

Perhaps we have a different definition of initiate.

I've been approached by women my whole life (mostly while on DMSI, thanks Shannon! But also before then) so yeah, they make the first move BUT (and this is a big but) does that lead to sex? No.

What I meant was, the girl won't ask you out, won't take her clothes off for you, won't drag you into her bedroom.

Now, if you're saying that has happened to you, then great! Guess I was wrong. Still waiting for that to happen for me however.

The question then becomes: how does that happen? What's different between RTBoss's experience and Sarge's experience? What is Sarge missing? What could DMSI bring to the table for guys like Sarge to get results like RT?

It's about improving the program.

Cool - I understand where you're coming from. All I'm asking is for you to say, "In my experience, this has never happened to me. I think it's because...X,Y,Z...or perhaps it would happen if...A,B,C..." But speaking in absolutes and drawing conclusion as if they apply to everyone else? That's the issue I'm taking up, here.

Fair enough.

In my defense, I thought that went without saying.

Plus, I often DO say "in my oipiunion" or "in my experience".

I have an authoritative "know it all" tone that serves me well in sales, perhaps that's it.

And a lot of my conclusions are drawn from sales experience and recent failed approaches (approaches from the woman that ended up fizzling out).

I want you to feel like you can contribute, and you should. No reason to sit on the sidelines - but honor where you are. There are guys on this forum that have experiences that make my head spin. They make getting laid seem like an everyday occurrence. I don't know how that's done, and I have no problems saying so.

Yeah I get you. I'm not trying to say I have more experience with women. I do think I have a psychological know-how however. Mostly from my sales experience, but people are people, and women are people too.

But yes, it has happened to me. I have had a beautiful woman look me in the eye and say, "I'm so fuckin' horny - 'someone' is going to have to take me home to their bed tonight. And if 'he' doesn't, I'll have to find someone else who will." So I did, because I was attracted and she made it super-easy for me. She had the biggest titties of any girl I've slept with! It was fun. I banged her two more times before she pulled the relationship card and that's when I said, "No thanks, I was just having fun and was hoping that's all you were looking for, too..."

So let's improve the program from all angles. None of us should be speaking in absolutes, like we're the foremost expert. There's always someone better, always someone who's more "in-the-know." Hopefully we can all just share opinions - and agree or disagree - and get DMSI to where it needs to be so 90+% of us can land new sexual partners (for however long we'll have them) week-in-and-week-out.

Totally agree.

That being said, I vibe with Myth. Dude knows what he's talking about - in my opinion. EDIT: And, of course, my buddy Duke - always has somethin' good to say!

I get you.

There is a difference between playing and coaching, however.

Wayne Gretzky was the greatest player in the NHL, but he can't coach.

Just sayin'.

So... both sides wait indefinitely for the other to start?

Yes, this is a problem many of us are experiencing on DMSI.

Which is why I advocate picking the right role for the situation. If she doesn't want you, you have to start. If you start, she isn't the one starting. Conversely, she'll start if she wants to and if you let her. If she doesn't or you insist on acting like she can't start, you have to be the one to start. And I'm beginning to talk in circles now.

Kind of, lol.

Yes I can agree with that.

DMSI should allow us to do both.

There is some concern that DMSI only caters to women who already want you based on whatever limited information they have at the present time.

Of course, but when? It seems to me you think a girl who doesn't want the guy will NEVER want the guy and vice versa. Am I right in that assumption?

Not exactly. You're trying to rewrite the scene midway through because you're thinking about making the sale, so you're resetting the scene and roles at each step -- which you can't expect others to do along with you. Yes, you can potentially convince a woman who doesn't want you to change her mind about you. That's called seducing. At which point, you've already laid the groundwork and the set tone as seducer, and, even if you've reset the roles in your head because she seems more interested, she's probably going to go with momentum and stick with her original role to allow you to make your first move as seducer. She's expecting you to continue what you're doing, not to pass the baton to her. Otherwise, to reference my post from yesterday, you're expecting Chewbacca to put on a dress in the middle of the movie and start reading Leia's lines. Or, to put it another way, when you convince your potential customer that your product is a wise investment, you don't suddenly turn into a customer and start buying the product from them. You're still the salesman who started the pitch, and they're still the customer. They're not going to expect to trade jobs in the middle.

I disagree.

If you provide the right information, people go from disinterested person, to raving customer chasing you down the street after you've left their house (true story/field tested).

Give someone the reason to buy, then stop pushing the product, they WILL do the rest.

Why not? Knowing you want her could empower her to make the first move because she knows she won't be rejected and be embarrassed.

Because not being rejected isn't an enticement to want what you don't want. If a woman that you found completely unattractive came up to you and said "I won't reject you"... would you suddenly want her?

No... got me there.

Sure you do, because women don't initiate, so even if you know the girl wants you, you still have to ask her out.

Women initiate. I've had some do so quite forcefully. But they tend not to initiate if you're communicating to them that women shouldn't initiate, women aren't welcome to initiate, men must initiate, you're too nervous for them to initiate, etc. Women can initiate, but they probably aren't going to fight against you in order to seduce you. It's a little counter-intuitive. Don't decide for them that they can't, and that difference can come across.

Now, I find it hard to believe you actually think that if a girl doesn't want you NOW she will never want you.

I also find it hard to believe that you could possibly think that finding out new information about a guy has NO bearing on her future decisions regarding sex with that guy.

Probably because I don't think that at all. But responding positively to your seduction is not that same as expecting you to stop seducing so that she can, for no reason at all, change what she's doing to try to get the guy who already wants her... to do what he's already doing.

If I'm driving along and my car suddenly stops running, my first reaction isn't to think, "Oh, it must be my turn to carry the car." You established a role. If you stop moving forward in that role, she may be likely to think that you lost interest.

Like I said, it's a sales tactic. Works quite often and very effectively for me.

I don't want to reveal the ins and outs for obvious reasons.

Yeah that ssounds like the opposite of what I want.

To me, seducer is a guy who picks a girl (like me and my hairdresser) and can use his skills to get HER.

Firstly, one woman is the first step in any numbers game (over time). Don't confuse a numbers game (more women mean more possibilities that she'll say yes) with being about empty "Can I get your number?" approaches.

Or, if you're referring to seducing one woman independent of constant rejection, that woman may not take kindly to you never honoring her rejection.

I'm hoping that you'd meant the first one.

Ok. Well, I meant that you can get a single woman regardless of the rejections.

In sales I learned "no" simply means "I don't have enough information yet". That includes information about other products (in this case, other men she'd say yes to).

But the theory is: if you are the kind of guy she wants and you haven't shown her that, she will reject you until she finds out.

PUA Skills (as I'd like to learn) are how to show her what she wants.

You can't know she'd love your frown until you frown around her and notice she suddenly moves closer, for example.

It's all microbehaviors but the theory is, if you could calibrate well enough, you could only show her the parts of yourself she likes (without being fake. So like, only talk about stuff she likes to talk about) and stop showing her the parts she doesn't like.

In sales they are called "hot buttons"

I had an instance a whiole ago, was making my pitch but the woman seemed hesitant. She went silent.

Thinking fast I just guessed that maybe she didn't think our company was reputable. So I said "by the way, we do have an A+ rating in such and such"

Immediately she changed her whole demeanor and not only set the appointment but invited me into her house, and we were chatting and joking in no time.

I didn't have to lie, but I did have to show her what she wanted to see.

Same in pick up I THEORIZE.

He's NOT a seducer until he can seduce the WOMAN (singular) of his choosing.

And that sounds like where the definition is falling apart. On two counts. Firstly, he is choosing. If you try to seduce a woman for two hours on day #1, that's one chosen, seduced woman. If you try to seduce a woman for four hours on day #2, that's two. Do that a bazillion times, and it's a bazillion approaches and a numbers game. The "numbers" in "numbers game" isn't phone numbers, it's how many you try until one says yes. The same way that a lotto being a numbers game isn't about phone numbers or the numbers on the lotto balls. It's about statistical odds. I'm not talking about PUA "Can I get your number?" stuff and never was. It's as if you think that no conversation is ever involved in any seduction other than the ones that you do.

And my second concern is about you defining seducer after a seduction's success rather than during the seduction. Granted, he's not a successful seducer (with that woman) until he seduces the woman, but he's a seducer (neither successful nor unsuccessful) as soon as he begins the seduction process, starting with approaching a girl and continuing through trying to convince her. Once he's started, he's assumed the role. If you've put on a Fedex uniform, don't be surprised if people start treating you like the delivery guy, even if you're not succeeding at delivering any packages.

Fair enough.

IMHO, this is no better than your first paragraph because you are still at the mercy of "fate" or "luck".

Like it or not, you're just "getting lucky" and that is NOT the way of the seducer.

Firstly, that wasn't the seducer paragraph, that was the seduced paragraph. And it very much isn't the way of the seducer -- which has been my whole point.

Secondly, no. It's not luck to: play up my best qualities, go to a receptive location, position myself near attractive women without seeming like an approach, be open, have conversations, make them convince me, etc. That's calculated effort. The difference is: I don't insist on seducing a woman before she can seduce me. And seduce me is not walking up to me and saying, "Wanna take me home?" Well, except when they do that. But I still make them convince me, if I even agree to do so. Her approaching and initiating is a start, but, usually, there's a lot more to the seduced's script than saying yes/no and heading to the nearest bedroom. Because it's pretty much the same script that the girl's following when you approach her.

Interesting. And now you got me thinking we're talking about the same thing, because this sounds exactly like what I'd like DMSI to train users to be able to do.

The difference is:

Have you done that and saw a girl you wanted and gotten HER? And have you been able to do this repeatedly with predictable outcomes?

If so, then that is seduction to me.

It works for YOU, which is great, but for many of us (*cough* me *cough*) such a thing isn't possible. Either by lack of awareness or social skills.

Then improve them. Here's an exercise to try. Spend a day with your brother or a friend or whomever, with both of you completely silent, and practice communicating while not talking. Don't rely on Charades. Just stick with the simplest of body language. Practice and improve. Or: Watch TV with the sound off. Practice reading the situation with no words to guide you.

Or ignore me because I'm just lucky and passive. Up to you.

Lol, I'm not trying to discredit you dude. If I'm coming across that way it's a testament to my poor social skills. :/

I'm simply saying that DMSI could have modules to help in that area.

I already read tons of books (more than 10), had a social skills coach, work in sales, all in an effort to improve those skills.

I'm not being passive...

My hopes for DMSI is further and more advanced than a "luck" approach.

Hey, I'll take luck if I can get it. I don't look a gift horse in the mouth. But I'd be screwed if i relied on luck. My back-up plans have back-up plans.

I hear you. I'd take luck if I was getting it too. I just prefer both.

Nah, it makes sense.

I'm not so sure. Because I kinda feel like I'm repeating myself between posts. A lot.

Which suggests that either I'm unclear or you're inferring what you want me to be saying. And I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

To be honest I'm lost at this point. I think we're not communicating as well as we could be. :/

I guess what I'm looking for DMSI to do is a hybrid of the two.

... which would be great if there weren't someone else in the room with you that you should hopefully be trying not to confuse. I've never gotten a girl to initiate by confusing her.

(Oddly, I have gotten them to do so by being confused, but that's neither here nor there.)

Like I said: I've done it in sales. And unless ypou're suggesting that people change their psychology during a sales call, the same principles should (IMO/in theory) work for both.

1. Know what the woman you want, wants

2. DISPLAY that effectively

3. Don't mess things up

1. In under a few seconds, that's wanting to be psychic (or close enough). Not entirely impossible.

Refer to the post above about the woman and how I handled the situation.

2. And that's wanting to be capable of being everything possible.

No, it's about displaying what you HAVE that she may want but that you may not be displaying for a variety of reasons (like your mood or state).

3. And that's wanting to be infallible.

It's wanting to do the best you can. Obviously you can't be perfect, but you CAN aspire to perfection. Learn from your mistakes, and be better for next time.

Personally, I'll take omniscience, flight, and... x-ray vision? I don't know. I'll have to get back to you on that.

There's no point to staying stuck in the "me" that I prefer if another "me" can be just as attractive to women.

I hope that makes sense.

I mean, I can smile or frown. One of those will turn a woman on, the other will not. You can do this for EVERYTHING.

Why get hung up on "Dude, I'm just a frowny guy! It's her loss if she doesn't like me"

I call bullsh!t on that. Give the customer what they want.

For the length of a sales pitch, sure. For the length of a relationship? Let us know how that works out for you. I've tried it before. 24/7/365 pretending was not my thing.

Not talking about pretending yo.

Lol, now I'M repeating myself.

And, before you say that you don't have to stay that way longer that the sales pitch, you're the product, not just the salesman. If the product fails to perform to agreed-upon specifications after purchase, is the customer going to keep it?

Of course not. That's why you show aspects of your product that are REAL aspects of the product. No pretending, remember? No lying, no manipulation.

But some people value what colors a product comes in more than they value where it's manufactured (for example. True story actually, I won't go into it however).

But hey! just being myself! She should take it or leave it, right?

Go for it. Be someone that you're not for sex/love.

Sometimes, I wonder if that one's like chicken pox.

I'm not saying that. I'm not saying pretend, I'm not saying lie, I'm not saying manipulate.

I'm saying:

If you like water skiing and playing video games, but the girl you want likes water skiing only, don't take her out and play video games. Go water skiing.

OR, should I leave my boring convo topics for people who like talking about them?

Does that make me fake? No. It just makes the interaction more beneficial to both.

Just keep an eye out for where the bending stops and the breaking begins.

I agree.

Yeah I see your point, hopefully you got mine.

As much as I can. Still not convinced that mine's reached you. Anyhow, a very important woman has been waiting for my input all day, so please forgive me for reaching my limit here.

It's all good bro.

I hope I clarified more, I definitely see how you were misinterpreting things I was saying, and so I understand more where you were coming from. Hopefully this whole discussion helps DMSI in some way.

@RT: At the end of the day, some women are just too inhibited to do the first move. That's where Sarge has a point by saying that actualy seducing, instead of waiting for women to fall on your lap, maximises chances.
Some other women may gather all the courage they can to show small interests, then bail out at the first slightest mistake. So yeah, being "good" too matters. Having basic social/seduction skills to say the rights words and do the right things at the right moments. That's where I agree with Sarge again.

This is especially true if you do not have the physique of a greek god or if you're average.

Word up.

Apparently, I've lied. I've missed so much while replying to your other post that I have to catch up on more.

So what we have is a sub that will cater to those already good with women.

Nope:

1. We have people who have had some success trying to share information with those who might consider it useful. If you'd rather that I not prioritize my replies to you, there is someone very important to me who actually wants to hear them who's been waiting while I take the time here.

That reply of mine was to RT. I'm not trying to downplay your responses. That being said, I certainly don't want to keep you away from more important matters.

2. We also have a sub (hopefully? theoretically?) designed to educate us in areas other than those that you've studied or experienced so far. An apple is food, but not all foods are apples.

This is my hope for DMSI as well. Growth.