myth's Belated DMSI 3.1 Journal

[myth]

So... both sides wait indefinitely for the other to start?

Yes, this is a problem many of us are experiencing on DMSI.

Which is why I advocate picking the right role for the situation. If she doesn't want you, you have to start. If you start, she isn't the one starting. Conversely, she'll start if she wants to and if you let her. If she doesn't or you insist on acting like she can't start, you have to be the one to start. And I'm beginning to talk in circles now.

Of course, but when? It seems to me you think a girl who doesn't want the guy will NEVER want the guy and vice versa. Am I right in that assumption?

Not exactly. You're trying to rewrite the scene midway through because you're thinking about making the sale, so you're resetting the scene and roles at each step -- which you can't expect others to do along with you. Yes, you can potentially convince a woman who doesn't want you to change her mind about you. That's called seducing. At which point, you've already laid the groundwork and the set tone as seducer, and, even if you've reset the roles in your head because she seems more interested, she's probably going to go with momentum and stick with her original role to allow you to make your first move as seducer. She's expecting you to continue what you're doing, not to pass the baton to her. Otherwise, to reference my post from yesterday, you're expecting Chewbacca to put on a dress in the middle of the movie and start reading Leia's lines. Or, to put it another way, when you convince your potential customer that your product is a wise investment, you don't suddenly turn into a customer and start buying the product from them. You're still the salesman who started the pitch, and they're still the customer. They're not going to expect to trade jobs in the middle.

Why not? Knowing you want her could empower her to make the first move because she knows she won't be rejected and be embarrassed.

Because not being rejected isn't an enticement to want what you don't want. If a woman that you found completely unattractive came up to you and said "I won't reject you"... would you suddenly want her?

Sure you do, because women don't initiate, so even if you know the girl wants you, you still have to ask her out.

Women initiate. I've had some do so quite forcefully. But they tend not to initiate if you're communicating to them that women shouldn't initiate, women aren't welcome to initiate, men must initiate, you're too nervous for them to initiate, etc. Women can initiate, but they probably aren't going to fight against you in order to seduce you. It's a little counter-intuitive. Don't decide for them that they can't, and that difference can come across.

Now, I find it hard to believe you actually think that if a girl doesn't want you NOW she will never want you.

I also find it hard to believe that you could possibly think that finding out new information about a guy has NO bearing on her future decisions regarding sex with that guy.

Probably because I don't think that at all. But responding positively to your seduction is not that same as expecting you to stop seducing so that she can, for no reason at all, change what she's doing to try to get the guy who already wants her... to do what he's already doing.

If I'm driving along and my car suddenly stops running, my first reaction isn't to think, "Oh, it must be my turn to carry the car." You established a role. If you stop moving forward in that role, she may be likely to think that you lost interest.

Yeah that ssounds like the opposite of what I want.

To me, seducer is a guy who picks a girl (like me and my hairdresser) and can use his skills to get HER.

Firstly, one woman is the first step in any numbers game (over time). Don't confuse a numbers game (more women mean more possibilities that she'll say yes) with being about empty "Can I get your number?" approaches.

Or, if you're referring to seducing one woman independent of constant rejection, that woman may not take kindly to you never honoring her rejection.

I'm hoping that you'd meant the first one.

He's NOT a seducer until he can seduce the WOMAN (singular) of his choosing.

And that sounds like where the definition is falling apart. On two counts. Firstly, he is choosing. If you try to seduce a woman for two hours on day #1, that's one chosen, seduced woman. If you try to seduce a woman for four hours on day #2, that's two. Do that a bazillion times, and it's a bazillion approaches and a numbers game. The "numbers" in "numbers game" isn't phone numbers, it's how many you try until one says yes. The same way that a lotto being a numbers game isn't about phone numbers or the numbers on the lotto balls. It's about statistical odds. I'm not talking about PUA "Can I get your number?" stuff and never was. It's as if you think that no conversation is ever involved in any seduction other than the ones that you do.

And my second concern is about you defining seducer after a seduction's success rather than during the seduction. Granted, he's not a successful seducer (with that woman) until he seduces the woman, but he's a seducer (neither successful nor unsuccessful) as soon as he begins the seduction process, starting with approaching a girl and continuing through trying to convince her. Once he's started, he's assumed the role. If you've put on a Fedex uniform, don't be surprised if people start treating you like the delivery guy, even if you're not succeeding at delivering any packages.

IMHO, this is no better than your first paragraph because you are still at the mercy of "fate" or "luck".

Like it or not, you're just "getting lucky" and that is NOT the way of the seducer.

Firstly, that wasn't the seducer paragraph, that was the seduced paragraph. And it very much isn't the way of the seducer -- which has been my whole point.

Secondly, no. It's not luck to: play up my best qualities, go to a receptive location, position myself near attractive women without seeming like an approach, be open, have conversations, make them convince me, etc. That's calculated effort. The difference is: I don't insist on seducing a woman before she can seduce me. And seduce me is not walking up to me and saying, "Wanna take me home?" Well, except when they do that. But I still make them convince me, if I even agree to do so. Her approaching and initiating is a start, but, usually, there's a lot more to the seduced's script than saying yes/no and heading to the nearest bedroom. Because it's pretty much the same script that the girl's following when you approach her.

It works for YOU, which is great, but for many of us (*cough* me *cough*) such a thing isn't possible. Either by lack of awareness or social skills.

Then improve them. Here's an exercise to try. Spend a day with your brother or a friend or whomever, with both of you completely silent, and practice communicating while not talking. Don't rely on Charades. Just stick with the simplest of body language. Practice and improve. Or: Watch TV with the sound off. Practice reading the situation with no words to guide you.

Or ignore me because I'm just lucky and passive. Up to you.

My hopes for DMSI is further and more advanced than a "luck" approach.

Hey, I'll take luck if I can get it. I don't look a gift horse in the mouth. But I'd be screwed if i relied on luck. My back-up plans have back-up plans.

Nah, it makes sense.

I'm not so sure. Because I kinda feel like I'm repeating myself between posts. A lot.

Which suggests that either I'm unclear or you're inferring what you want me to be saying. And I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I guess what I'm looking for DMSI to do is a hybrid of the two.

... which would be great if there weren't someone else in the room with you that you should hopefully be trying not to confuse. I've never gotten a girl to initiate by confusing her.

(Oddly, I have gotten them to do so by being confused, but that's neither here nor there.)

1. Know what the woman you want, wants

2. DISPLAY that effectively

3. Don't mess things up

1. In under a few seconds, that's wanting to be psychic (or close enough). Not entirely impossible.

2. And that's wanting to be capable of being everything possible.

3. And that's wanting to be infallible.

Personally, I'll take omniscience, flight, and... x-ray vision? I don't know. I'll have to get back to you on that.

There's no point to staying stuck in the "me" that I prefer if another "me" can be just as attractive to women.

I hope that makes sense.

I mean, I can smile or frown. One of those will turn a woman on, the other will not. You can do this for EVERYTHING.

Why get hung up on "Dude, I'm just a frowny guy! It's her loss if she doesn't like me"

I call bullsh!t on that. Give the customer what they want.

For the length of a sales pitch, sure. For the length of a relationship? Let us know how that works out for you. I've tried it before. 24/7/365 pretending was not my thing.

And, before you say that you don't have to stay that way longer that the sales pitch, you're the product, not just the salesman. If the product fails to perform to agreed-upon specifications after purchase, is the customer going to keep it?

But hey! just being myself! She should take it or leave it, right?

Go for it. Be someone that you're not for sex/love.

Sometimes, I wonder if that one's like chicken pox.

OR, should I leave my boring convo topics for people who like talking about them?

Does that make me fake? No. It just makes the interaction more beneficial to both.

Just keep an eye out for where the bending stops and the breaking begins.

Yeah I see your point, hopefully you got mine.

As much as I can. Still not convinced that mine's reached you. Anyhow, a very important woman has been waiting for my input all day, so please forgive me for reaching my limit here.