Shannon's Journal Discussion Thread, Vol. 8

[NOMAD]

Shannon seems to be more along the lines of focusing on stoicism/ascended alpha while Benjamin and I think alike and want the more traditional masculine idea.


While I do appreciate stoicism and my women have called me stoic and like that about me I really wish I was more traditionally masculine.  A lot more confidence, drive, focus, determination, competitiveness, more aggressiveness (in terms of being a go getter).  There's so much focus on being stoic for men now a days while they struggle with drive, purpose, passion.  Most guys seem to be focusing on being stoic rather than the fundamental traditional masculine traits which have served them for thousands of years.


I see this all the time..most women I come across are now the men of the past.  They are super confident, go getters, driven, focused on their goals.

I like the concept of the ascendant alpha. It represents self-mastery at its finest.

With self-mastery comes the ability to be the "traditional alpha" if that's what you choose to be. Or not. With self-mastery, you have the choice.

[Benjamin]

This will never happen.  While testosterone is important for men, there are two primary issues with this idea.

Inducing an increased level of testosterone in a sub to develop masculinity only skews the effects the program has artificially and The effect will only last as long as you tun the program.

A subliminal to focus you into and develop your masculinity should not be something you have to run forever to maintain the results.  Furthermore, it is possible that inducing this state of raised hormones for too long may result in adrenal exhaustion. Finally, how will you develop these traits accurately if you're artificially increasing your testosterone and then developing them based on that?  When the test levels drop because you stopped using the program, there will be a cognitive dissonance, because you calibrated your development on an artificial and temporary state.

We want to develop and calibrate based on your natural state, and then later on, add testosterone.  Not the other way around.

That's a good point I hadn't considered. Acting masculine cos you have a shot of testosterone vs having it on the deep level.

It makes sense to me know why testosterone wouldn't be in AM7, which was something I really was hoping for.

A subliminal of this type, whether it be Alpha Male or something to develop masculinity, must be the most distilled version of what it is trying to accomplish.  Adding in things like workout motivation and porn destroyer and such only distracts from the essential goal of the program and divides attention, focus and energy.  That is part of why AM is a multi-stage set: to reduce that, given the number of legitimate sub-goals it had to focus on in each step.

Develop Your Masculinity, or whatever I end up calling it, is going to be a single stage program.  My vision for this program is to be a minimialist design that laser focuses on the primary root of the issue, and thus enables everything else to result as a natural consequence.  Not only do we have a limited number of stages to this (one), but in 5.11G we have a limited number of goals we can reasonably build into a program.

So this program is about deep inner work that needs to take place to develop your masculinity.  It's not about motivating you to go exercise - proper masculinity will do that naturally.  It's not about artificially increasing testosterone, for reasons I have already discussed.  This is all about inner work, getting rid of the garbage beliefs that society has bombarded men with about what is masculine that are really just propaganda designed to weaken men and make them easier to control, thus resulting in less masculinity.  Making guys understand that masculinity is not "toxic".  Making guys understand that they can and should embrace their natural masculinity and masculine nature.  Helping guys understand what masculine actually is, now that we have all this garbage that is confusing the shit out of everyone because everyone is addicted to junk social media sites and has lost any and all ability to think for themselves.

Develop Your Masculinity isn't intended to be Alpha Male, and it will not be.  Alpha Male isn't a "luxury upgrade" of Develop Your Masculinity.  It has to be as broad and universally accessible as possible, so we can help as many guys as possible move towards becoming men.  And at the same time, we're not trying to turn guys into assholes or selfish pricks or users or abusers or any of the negative aspects of what we are told that masculinity is these days by those who have an agenda against masculinity and men.

This is minimalist.  Pure.  Core of the issue.  It's about how you define "masculine" and "man".  It's about what you accept as true.  It's about thinking for yourself and being able to think critically, so you can't be easily brainwashed by today garbage social media and news content, and you can separate the propaganda from the truth.  It's about finding and holding the right set of beliefs and the right identity and frame of reference to positively focus into your natural, positive masculinity and develop it to it's full potential.  It's about being accepting of your natural masculinity and embracing your natural masculinity, and developing it, standing strong within it and embodying it with natural strength and confidence, because it is simply what and who you are.

Lots of ideas for what to add have been floated, but they're almost all putting bandages on the symptoms, not fixing the root of the issue.  The root of the issue is that guys in many cases no longer even know what masculinity even is anymore.  They are told that being masculine is toxic.  That it's not acceptable to be masculine, never mind male. 

This program needs to halt that and put guys who use it back on track to understanding themselves as males, accepting themselves as males, accepting that masculinity is every bit as valid and important as femininity (Yin and Yang must balance and fulfill each other's weaknesses while enhancing each other's strengths for there to be harmony and success within the whole of the system, which in this case is society) and developing their natural masculinity in positive, healthy ways that aren't defined by and guided by propaganda designed to make them weak and easily controlled.

That is my vision for this program.  Something that - when it does what it's designed to do - naturally results in all the masculine things, and guys becoming and embracing being men.

And Ben, I'm not just answering your post with this, but all the posts above yours suggesting what to put in this program.

Awesome explanation, i'm on board with that now that I understand better.

It's definately a balancing act. Because there's a fairly low bar guys who are roided and tatted up come across as fairly masculine.. but then you see videos of them losing their shit and trying to start fights over little things and trying to bully and intimidate people, like some of the guys on Eric Kanevsky's videos who trolls them.

I know from when I did security the guys acting tough, walking around pretending to be tough, talking the biggest amount of shit about how tough they are would usually be in the toilet or under the pool table when it kicked off, or would pretty quickly goto water when it come to it.

Then you have Andrew Tate, I do like alot of his mindsets but he tries to tell you that if you don't have mansions and tons of fancy cars you aren't masculine.. where personally I don't give a fuck about that.

Then we have the 'conscious masculinity' dudes who man, I can't even comprehend the shit they come out with. There was this thing a 'men's cuddle club' where a group of men would sit around and cuddle each other to 'heal their masculinity'. Sometimes I swear some of this stuff is trolling us to see if anyone will do it.

It's hard to find role models kind of between who is legitimately strong and secure, of course that could also come across as an 'asshole' with how far society has gone in the wrong direction, but it would be learning to be assertive in a balanced grounded way, and if they take it the wrong way it's on them.

[Benjamin]

I too don't want any of the new age masculinity crap because frankly that's what most of us already are or were..."modern males" (for those of us that worked to undo all the brainwashing and feminizing).  

I second this and I hope Shannon will clarify exactly what the sub will be about when the time comes.  I think there's a small disconnect in what Shannon/Benjamin and myself see as masculine.

Shannon seems to be more along the lines of focusing on stoicism/ascended alpha while Benjamin and I think alike and want the more traditional masculine idea.

While I do appreciate stoicism and my women have called me stoic and like that about me I really wish I was more traditionally masculine.  A lot more confidence, drive, focus, determination, competitiveness, more aggressiveness (in terms of being a go getter).  There's so much focus on being stoic for men now a days while they struggle with drive, purpose, passion.  Most guys seem to be focusing on being stoic rather than the fundamental traditional masculine traits which have served them for thousands of years.

I see this all the time..most women I come across are now the men of the past.  They are super confident, go getters, driven, focused on their goals.

I do like the Ascended Alpha concept, it's kind of similar to how I was saying it's a balancing act in the previous post. I don't think the concept exclused any of those things as all of those are very needed. I say that in that I know I lack alot of that but would like to have more of it.

I don't totally get your point of Stoic vs Traditonal Masculinity. As i'd see Traditional Masculinity as stoic in that you aren't overly emotional. But i'm seeing more that it's not about pushing these emotions down, ignoring them as they will come out in unhealthy ways, but as having emotional control.

Despite what all these women and society tries to tell us now about "men should be emotional" I guarantee 99% of them lose respect for men who are overly emotional all the time, crying over little things, not being able to handle situations that come up cos they are too busy crying. And funnily enough they tell us "show your emotion" and we are like "ok well fuck you i'm fucking angry about how society is treating men" and then they ridicule you and don't want to hear it suddenly. Apparently it has to be some invisible list of approved emotions or something.

To revisit it, I found the Ascendant Alpha post again and will reread it. For anyone interested -

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-...7#pid34957

Rereading it again, I like it. Leading out of people wanting to legitimately follow you, respect you being inspired by you as opposed to they are intimidated so have to follow you. I'd definately love to see this definition expanded upon whether it's for this masculinity program or when AM7 comes out so we can better understand what it's developing. Sure it may not be necessarily needed, but I love to know this stuff.

[Shannon]

Last question related to our recent conversation, Shannon.

Would you say that it's considerably easier to handle the turmoil from OSGF after EPHRA as opposed to running OSGF by itself?

You've considered it to be an intense one.

This will depend on the individual and what they need. 

Generally speaking, OGSF is best for dealing with GSF and trauma.  But EHPRA is better for dealing with trauma and emotional damage as a whole.  Emotional damage can result without trauma and trauma may not (but can) result in emotional damage.

How intense the program is depends also on how long you use it at a single stretch and what exactly you need to work through and what your conscious and subconscious personality types are.

[Shannon]

Congrats on the new release, @Shannon .



Looking forward to reading the long description of X4A-2000. Should be some very interesting things in there by the sounds of your words.



Any progress on that front to figuring out the last bits surrounding it before release?

I have to figure out one more factor that I had forgotten before it will be possible for me to release X4A-2000.  If that cannot be solved, then I cannot release it.  We shall see.

SD will no doubt help a lot of people. It's a needed program.

I agree.

Amusingly, as soon as I saw the talk of the "Masculinity Sub", this was my instant thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNJMAyeP0s

I am unfamiliar with what you refer to with this song.  I'm sure not being a speaker of French does not help.

[Johannesbrst]

I'm curious to see what you'll create for the masculinity sub and whether it will meet the requirements for being built.

Talking about the subject reminded me of Duke mentioning how Maverick made him feel both masculine and sensitive at the same time. There might be something valuable to gather from that.

On a broader scale, I believe our society is currently experiencing a counter-reaction to traditional domineering masculine norms. These norms have been used not only for good but also to exploit both women and men. This exploitation has led to a fear of being taken advantage of, which i believe is why anything associated with increasing power is often labeled as "toxic masculinity."

I believe that men need to embody qualities associated with traditional masculinity, such as not getting overly caught up in emotions, pursuing goals, and challenging ourselves to grow stronger and more resilient. However, this is also an opportune time to integrate a more conscious perspective on our roles as men in the world. Perhaps looking at the masculinity from an energetic point of view, and how liberating a real masculine presence can be for yourself and others.

Furthermore, men often suffer more from divorce and loneliness, to a large part driven by that we typically haven't learned the skill to manage our emotions, seek support from friends, and maintain a strong social support system. I believe this issue is largely due to falling into stereotypes that suggest one cannot be a man if they show vulnerability or seek external support. This could also be included in the case of expanding the notion on what it means to be a man.

A real man has learned to be authentic with his emotions, suffering, and challenges, and be able to share these with others. While women are often “hard-wired” to seek security, many also recognize the need for authentic men in their lives. Not just a man who cries constantly to show sensitivity, but one who can stay present with his pain even when looking his lover in the eyes. This capacity is generally in short supply, and I believe it is highly sought after.

Previously, I've recommended David Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man" to you, Shannon, as he addresses some of these areas, it's not a very long read and can perhaps give some additional perspectives to your research.

Lastly, I’m intrigued by another member sharing my experience of feeling like AM made them “play a part” rather than integrating the script into their own personality. I’ve read that Maverick is designed to integrate seamlessly into one’s personality. Could a similar approach in AM be beneficial?

[callie]

I'm in a similar situation. Although for me it was after OFv3. Since then, I've always felt overwhelmed by every sub I’ve used (which is all the healing titles after ofv3), sometimes to the point where I could barely function for months, despite following the instructions. Shannon has always been helpful whenever I've asked for assistance, and his subs have been great momentarily. However, something deep within me seems to refuse to go with it. I always attributed it to deep-seated fears but maybe it also has to do with my personality and/or lack of self acceptance, idk. I just wish I could use these subs more effortlessly.

I am also hoping that self developement can be the thing that change this.

In this case, I very much need you to keep me informed as to what Self Development does and what effects it has.  It does not have fear removal in it, and it is designed to be gentle and still get the job done.  I need to better understand cases like yours so I can find the way to work through that deep refusal.  Thank you for your help in this.

If I use it I will. I would like to see some reports on it first. Have you received any?

[GreekGod22]

I believe that men need to embody qualities associated with traditional masculinity, such as not getting overly caught up in emotions, pursuing goals, and challenging ourselves to grow stronger and more resilient. However, this is also an opportune time to integrate a more conscious perspective on our roles as men in the world. Perhaps looking at the masculinity from an energetic point of view, and how liberating a real masculine presence can be for yourself and others.

Furthermore, men often suffer more from divorce and loneliness, to a large part driven by that we typically haven't learned the skill to manage our emotions, seek support from friends, and maintain a strong social support system. I believe this issue is largely due to falling into stereotypes that suggest one cannot be a man if they show vulnerability or seek external support. This could also be included in the case of expanding the notion on what it means to be a man.

A real man has learned to be authentic with his emotions, suffering, and challenges, and  be able to share these with others. While women are often “hard-wired” to seek security, many also recognize the need for authentic men in their lives. Not just a man who cries constantly to show sensitivity, but one who can stay present with his pain even when looking his lover in the eyes. This capacity is generally in short supply, and I believe it is highly sought after.

ChatGPT: "authentic" means genuine or real, representing something that is true to its nature, origin.
"Vulnerability" generally refers to the quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically, emotionally, or mentally.

Here's my take on the whole vulnerability/ authenticity dynamic.
Women do not desire weak men. Showing vulnerability to a woman will always be bad.
Women do not want a man to be emotional. They want to know that he is strong and stable, that SHE can be vulnerable and volatile emotionally with him and that HE will remain strong.
Men should always remain emotionally strong and unshaken. Men should always communicate to their woman in a way that shows that no matter what he is going through, he is going to make it, he is going to find a way, a solution, and that things will be alight. Men should never never communicate or express his insecurity, his fear of not making it, of not finding a way to his life's problem. That is the kiss of death.
Women do not want a man to emotionally open up with his fears and insecurities. They want the man to make her feel cared and loved, by being an emotional rock. Big distinction.

I also believe that a man should only show vulnerability to his close family - father, mother, brother or very close friend. But never to his wife.

Authenticity only matters to a woman in the sense that  it shows her that you stay true to your word, that you mean what you say, and you do what you say. It shows her that she can trust you.

[Shannon]

I'm curious to see what you'll create for the masculinity sub and whether it will meet the requirements for being built.

Talking about the subject reminded me of Duke mentioning how Maverick made him feel both masculine and sensitive at the same time. There might be something valuable to gather from that.

On a broader scale, I believe our society is currently experiencing a counter-reaction to traditional domineering masculine norms. These norms have been used not only for good but also to exploit both women and men. This exploitation has led to a fear of being taken advantage of, which i believe is why anything associated with increasing power is often labeled as "toxic masculinity."

I believe that men need to embody qualities associated with traditional masculinity, such as not getting overly caught up in emotions, pursuing goals, and challenging ourselves to grow stronger and more resilient. However, this is also an opportune time to integrate a more conscious perspective on our roles as men in the world. Perhaps looking at the masculinity from an energetic point of view, and how liberating a real masculine presence can be for yourself and others.

Furthermore, men often suffer more from divorce and loneliness, to a large part driven by that we typically haven't learned the skill to manage our emotions, seek support from friends, and maintain a strong social support system. I believe this issue is largely due to falling into stereotypes that suggest one cannot be a man if they show vulnerability or seek external support. This could also be included in the case of expanding the notion on what it means to be a man.

A real man has learned to be authentic with his emotions, suffering, and challenges, and  be able to share these with others. While women are often “hard-wired” to seek security, many also recognize the need for authentic men in their lives. Not just a man who cries constantly to show sensitivity, but one who can stay present with his pain even when looking his lover in the eyes. This capacity is generally in short supply, and I believe it is highly sought after.

Previously, I've recommended David Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man" to you, Shannon, as he addresses some of these areas, it's not a very long read and can perhaps give some additional perspectives to your research.

Lastly, I’m intrigued by another member sharing my experience of feeling like AM made them “play a part” rather than integrating the script into their own personality. I’ve read that Maverick is designed to integrate seamlessly into one’s personality. Could a similar approach in AM be beneficial?

The issue with AM6 making you feel like you are playing a part is down to it being built in 5G, which is not powerful enough to get past some people's resistance to actually making the necessary changes.  In fact, that is exactly why I started developing 6G.  Maverick is built in 5.9G, and thus is benefiting from a lot of design changes and a huge step up in power and impact towards getting the script executed.

[Shannon]

In this case, I very much need you to keep me informed as to what Self Development does and what effects it has.  It does not have fear removal in it, and it is designed to be gentle and still get the job done.  I need to better understand cases like yours so I can find the way to work through that deep refusal.  Thank you for your help in this.

If I use it I will. I would like to see some reports on it first. Have you received any?

Only those you see on the forum.

[Shannon]

I believe that men need to embody qualities associated with traditional masculinity, such as not getting overly caught up in emotions, pursuing goals, and challenging ourselves to grow stronger and more resilient. However, this is also an opportune time to integrate a more conscious perspective on our roles as men in the world. Perhaps looking at the masculinity from an energetic point of view, and how liberating a real masculine presence can be for yourself and others.

Furthermore, men often suffer more from divorce and loneliness, to a large part driven by that we typically haven't learned the skill to manage our emotions, seek support from friends, and maintain a strong social support system. I believe this issue is largely due to falling into stereotypes that suggest one cannot be a man if they show vulnerability or seek external support. This could also be included in the case of expanding the notion on what it means to be a man.

A real man has learned to be authentic with his emotions, suffering, and challenges, and  be able to share these with others. While women are often “hard-wired” to seek security, many also recognize the need for authentic men in their lives. Not just a man who cries constantly to show sensitivity, but one who can stay present with his pain even when looking his lover in the eyes. This capacity is generally in short supply, and I believe it is highly sought after.

ChatGPT: "authentic" means genuine or real, representing something that is true to its nature, origin.
"Vulnerability" generally refers to the quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically, emotionally, or mentally.

Here's my take on the whole vulnerability/ authenticity dynamic.
Women do not desire weak men. Showing vulnerability to a woman will always be bad.
Women do not want a man to be emotional. They want to know that he is strong and stable, that SHE can be vulnerable and volatile emotionally with him and that HE will remain strong.
Men should always remain emotionally strong and unshaken. Men should always communicate to their woman in a way that shows that no matter what he is going through, he is going to make it, he is going to find a way, a solution, and that things will be alight. Men should never never communicate or express his insecurity, his fear of not making it, of not finding a way to his life's problem. That is the kiss of death.
Women do not want a man to emotionally open up with his fears and insecurities. They want the man to make her feel cared and loved, by being an emotional rock. Big distinction.

I also believe that a man should only show vulnerability to his close family - father, mother, brother or very close friend. But never to his wife.

Authenticity only matters to a woman in the sense that  it shows her that you stay true to your word, that you mean what you say, and you do what you say. It shows her that she can trust you.

You are one who advocates for men to deny their own humanity then.  What you're not understanding is that what you advocate is destructive to men, no matter how strong they are.  And if you cannot show your human-ness and vulnerabilities and weaknesses to your wife then you have chosen the wrong woman to be your wife.

The fact is that humans, male and female, have strengths and weaknesses.  The developed man is strong enough to be able to accept that fact, and knows when and how to express his weakness and vulnerability, but he also understands that denying himself that acceptance and expression is not healthy to do all the time.

So a man should be aware that expressing vulnerability and or weakness isn't to be done casually or freely, but it is also not to be prevented at all costs.  You must find a balance that keeps you in your masculine center and strength, as well as which allows you to be human without self destructing trying to be inhuman.

[CatMan]

Congrats on the new release, @Shannon .







Looking forward to reading the long description of X4A-2000. Should be some very interesting things in there by the sounds of your words.







Any progress on that front to figuring out the last bits surrounding it before release?

I have to figure out one more factor that I had forgotten before it will be possible for me to release X4A-2000.  If that cannot be solved, then I cannot release it.  We shall see.

SD will no doubt help a lot of people. It's a needed program.

I agree.

Amusingly, as soon as I saw the talk of the "Masculinity Sub", this was my instant thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNJMAyeP0s

I am unfamiliar with what you refer to with this song.  I'm sure not being a speaker of French does not help.

I hope you can figure out the last hurdle for X4A-2000's release then, Shannon. That would be amazing by the sounds of it. Sounds like it it a step forward for sure.


The French song is a joke, Shannon. It's at this point, the official Andrew Tate theme song. So I posted it in regards to all the talk about the "Masculinity Sub". It/he were my first thoughts when I saw the posts. Haha.

[Raz]

@Shannon 

On the product page of SD 5.11 the volume for other phones seems to be wrong:

For users of Android phones with 15 total possible clicks of volume, play it at a volume of 8 out of 15 clicks.
For iPhone users, who have a total of 16 possible clicks of volume to work with, use it at a volume of 9 out of 16 clicks.
For Google phone users who have a total of 30 possible clicks of volume to work with, use it at a volume of 16 out of 30 clicks.
For those who have any other kind of phone, or a phone with any other number of clicks of volume, play it as close to 31% of maximum volume as you can get it.

It should be 51% if I am not mistaken.

Cheers

[Johannesbrst]

I'm curious to see what you'll create for the masculinity sub and whether it will meet the requirements for being built.

Talking about the subject reminded me of Duke mentioning how Maverick made him feel both masculine and sensitive at the same time. There might be something valuable to gather from that.

On a broader scale, I believe our society is currently experiencing a counter-reaction to traditional domineering masculine norms. These norms have been used not only for good but also to exploit both women and men. This exploitation has led to a fear of being taken advantage of, which i believe is why anything associated with increasing power is often labeled as "toxic masculinity."

I believe that men need to embody qualities associated with traditional masculinity, such as not getting overly caught up in emotions, pursuing goals, and challenging ourselves to grow stronger and more resilient. However, this is also an opportune time to integrate a more conscious perspective on our roles as men in the world. Perhaps looking at the masculinity from an energetic point of view, and how liberating a real masculine presence can be for yourself and others.

Furthermore, men often suffer more from divorce and loneliness, to a large part driven by that we typically haven't learned the skill to manage our emotions, seek support from friends, and maintain a strong social support system. I believe this issue is largely due to falling into stereotypes that suggest one cannot be a man if they show vulnerability or seek external support. This could also be included in the case of expanding the notion on what it means to be a man.

A real man has learned to be authentic with his emotions, suffering, and challenges, and  be able to share these with others. While women are often “hard-wired” to seek security, many also recognize the need for authentic men in their lives. Not just a man who cries constantly to show sensitivity, but one who can stay present with his pain even when looking his lover in the eyes. This capacity is generally in short supply, and I believe it is highly sought after.

Previously, I've recommended David Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man" to you, Shannon, as he addresses some of these areas, it's not a very long read and can perhaps give some additional perspectives to your research.

Lastly, I’m intrigued by another member sharing my experience of feeling like AM made them “play a part” rather than integrating the script into their own personality. I’ve read that Maverick is designed to integrate seamlessly into one’s personality. Could a similar approach in AM be beneficial?

The issue with AM6 making you feel like you are playing a part is down to it being built in 5G, which is not powerful enough to get past some people's resistance to actually making the necessary changes.  In fact, that is exactly why I started developing 6G.  Maverick is built in 5.9G, and thus is benefiting from a lot of design changes and a huge step up in power and impact towards getting the script executed.

Could be, but if you allow, I have another interpretation of my experience. What I believe happened is that the part of my consciousness that AM was trying to "awaken" was simply blocked, and very much so was resisting. However, to comply with the script, another part of my consciousness tried to execute the script. This made the experience feel "emulated" rather than "integrated". 

I've since then worked a lot on myself and noticed how many issues I have uncovered in my "lower" parts of my consciousness. If you are familiar with the chakra system, it has been the lower chakras that has been blocked and I needed a much gentler and slow approach to unblock these parts of myself. This led to the program being executed on a "higher" level, more grounded in thought, than in emotion and body, thus the feelings of dissociation and disconnectedness that both me and the other poster felt.

Perhaps 6G could take care of that, but from the previous post about the program being a "drill-sergeant", that could perhaps trigger the same reaction in other users, that are you the best to assess. 

Would also be interested to hear your input on the other parts of my post regarding the movements in society as well as my ideas regarding integrating a more conscious aspect of masculinity in the masculinity/AM programs.