Shannon's Journal Discussion Thread, Vol. 8

[ReconGunner]

You mentioned how some of the stuff is already in AM.  Just like LTU has several programs already in it I don't see why not AM can't have this develop your masculinity title already in it when the time comes to develop AM.  Just like you can have Money Magnet and then have UMS being a more complete money mastery program you can have both AM and this new title.

I think the distinction can be made between both.  An alpha male has all the qualities of a masculine man but a masculine man is not necessarily the alpha male of his group.  Maybe some guys just want to undo all the feminization they have gone through since childhood before they step into AM to become a top male.  Maybe some don't want to become an alpha male and just want to be more masculine.

As far as what's appropriate...I think Benjamin can also chime in on this as I have noted over the years how he does understand and is tuned in to the issues of masculinity and the feminization of men.  I've posted about this stuff in the forums for a while myself and have been studying this stuff for years (since i have suffered through and still working on fixing my masculinity).

Some of the basic goals from my studying this issue are what I listed.  I would say most guys suffer from this now a days due to feminization.

I'm aware of what needs to go in, but the issue I face is two things specifically:
1. Where do we draw the line between what goes into AM only and what goes into Develop Your Masculinity, and
2. No matter what I put in, someone will complain that XYZ should have gone in, or should not have.

One example: I believe that TOFM would be a necessary inclusion, because I believe that testosterone is foundational for healthy masculinity. @Shannon might choose otherwise based on his better information, expertise developing these experiences, etc.

[StridingStrider]

@Shannon What is your plan with OF now that you're focusing on EPRHA, OGSF and SD as the main healing subs?

Perhaps it could take on more of the "special cases" niche?

[AbundanceCH]

One example: I believe that TOFM would be a necessary inclusion, because I believe that testosterone is foundational for healthy masculinity. @Shannon might choose otherwise based on his better information, expertise developing these experiences, etc.

Testosterone optimizer could be included in Alpha Male and would be a luxury feature that we would pay extra for in getting AM.  My idea was focusing more on the inner foundation for the masculinity sub. But maybe Shannon could include something about testosterone in it as it's obviously a huge issue. Testosterone levels have reached all time lows recently.

[Benjamin]

Here’s an idea for a sub which would help a lot if not most of the guys in the forum. I think it would be a great seller.  I want to know what Shannon and everyone else thinks of this.

“Develop your masculinity”

As you already know a lot if not most of the issues of the guys in this forum (and outside too in the world) are in large part due to a lack of strong masculinity.  Whether it be due to anti male societal programming, lack of a strong male role model growing up, being raised my single mothers etc etc…guys are struggling right now.

This sub would help you become the most masculine version of yourself.  It would also help heal trauma related to masculinity (for those that have been emasculated by their mother, abuse (sexual or non sexual), bullying etc).

I think this might be an easy sub to make as Shannon could take some of the scripting of existing subs that relates to masculinity (some of the goals in the self steam sub could be used for example as they relate to masculinity).

And of course: goals about focus, determination, setting boundaries, defending yourself from attacks, competitiveness, confidence, self reliance, fearlessness, courage. Goals about some of the stuff most guys just lack now a days in terms of masculine traits which is leading to their struggle.

Just like you have money magnet and UMS you can have this sub and alpha male.

Alpha male is to make you a top male. This sub is to make you the most masculine version of yourself.  You could probably include this sub in alpha male since it’s a multi stager but this would be a good option for those that don’t want a multi stager and just want to be more masculine and not necessarily a top male/alpha male.

Definately agree this would be a good title. Though I don't know how it would differ from AM. I posted an idea similar ages ago and thought of it kind of like a "Masculine Healing" subliminal that does some of the things Shannon mentioned in his reply to this (undoing the crap) and thought it could possibly be a way to help prepare for AM.

But then as I thought more and more and added more goals to it, it could just become AM.

The difficult part - one of them, I should say - comes in trying to define the goals.  Where does one thing begin and another end within the "masculine"?  Is it appropriate to add this or leave that out?  And of course, no matter what I do, someone is going to be upset or complain because XYZ did or didn't happen.

That's a good point. One problem is that some people think they want all of what society and brainwashing is telling us that we should be to be a man, almost all of which is weakening us.. plus i've seen a huge, huge amount of so called 'masculinity coaches' spouting weak bs, especially the ones that talk about 'conscious relationships' 'conscious masculinity' and such.

I know you aren't on board with all that stuff, but I guess it is difficult to please the people who are looking for 'masculinity' from what they have been taught by societies bs. Personally I prefer all the traditional traits that are considered masculinity and actually are masculinity despite what we're told, as opposed to the new age crap.

As far as what's appropriate...I think Benjamin can also chime in on this as I have noted over the years how he does understand and is tuned in to the issues of masculinity and the feminization of men.  I've posted about this stuff in the forums for a while myself and have been studying this stuff for years (since i have suffered through and still working on fixing my masculinity).

Hahah funny, I wrote my response before reading this. I'm definately happy to give more input and discuss it more, but those are my initial thoughts. The thing is yes i'm very aware of all of this, can see it.. but that doesn't necessarily mean I have the solution to it all even though i've been looking for it for a long time. I do understand alot of the issues well though and what we are facing, seemingly in ways that alot of people are either blind to or ignore. (By that I don't think it applies to you guys here, but alot of people I come across in general or on social media).

Healing the feminization, healing this big tendency we've all grown up with which I can only imagine how bad it is growing up now that women hold the key to our acceptance, we have to do everything they want us to so we are approved of, 'subconscious obedience' to women and society.. I write it that way because consciously I know that I don't want to be obedient to it, but at a deeper level my responses do alot of the time reflect that. Healing the blockages to being deeply connected with our masculinity.

Some of my ideas may also be more 'full on' (that's the best word I can think of, though I don't think my ideas are too full on) than others, like some guys want to be the guy who is the good citizen, does what he is told, fits into society and all societies ideas and think that is what a man should be, wheras 'society' and conventional wisdom has never ever had my best interests at heart and especially doesn't these days in almost all areas, so I do not want this 'subconscious obedience' to society, and so called 'authority' either. I could go further into that, but it'd most likely breach some of the forum rules. I think i've said it in a way that it doesn't.

Of course the above would be done in a constructive, positive way first by embodying the man you want to be, embodying strong masculinity and being a beacon and inspiration for other men to be that, and from there push back against all the bs thrown at men by society. As opposed to destructive like Fight Club for example.

I know some people disagree but for me it would definately include becoming the best physical version of yourself, doesn't mean a bodybuilder but in good physical shape, functional, feeling good in your body, naturally high testosterone.

Anyway, gotta go do some other stuff but it might stimulate some discussion to start.

[Omni3]

Here’s an idea for a sub which would help a lot if not most of the guys in the forum. I think it would be a great seller.  I want to know what Shannon and everyone else thinks of this.

“Develop your masculinity”

As you already know a lot if not most of the issues of the guys in this forum (and outside too in the world) are in large part due to a lack of strong masculinity.  Whether it be due to anti male societal programming, lack of a strong male role model growing up, being raised my single mothers etc etc…guys are struggling right now.

This sub would help you become the most masculine version of yourself.  It would also help heal trauma related to masculinity (for those that have been emasculated by their mother, abuse (sexual or non sexual), bullying etc).

I think this might be an easy sub to make as Shannon could take some of the scripting of existing subs that relates to masculinity (some of the goals in the self steam sub could be used for example as they relate to masculinity).

And of course: goals about focus, determination, setting boundaries, defending yourself from attacks, competitiveness, confidence, self reliance, fearlessness, courage. Goals about some of the stuff most guys just lack now a days in terms of masculine traits which is leading to their struggle.

Just like you have money magnet and UMS you can have this sub and alpha male.

Alpha male is to make you a top male. This sub is to make you the most masculine version of yourself.  You could probably include this sub in alpha male since it’s a multi stager but this would be a good option for those that don’t want a multi stager and just want to be more masculine and not necessarily a top male/alpha male.

Definately agree this would be a good title. Though I don't know how it would differ from AM. I posted an idea similar ages ago and thought of it kind of like a "Masculine Healing" subliminal that does some of the things Shannon mentioned in his reply to this (undoing the crap) and thought it could possibly be a way to help prepare for AM.

But then as I thought more and more and added more goals to it, it could just become AM.

The difficult part - one of them, I should say - comes in trying to define the goals.  Where does one thing begin and another end within the "masculine"?  Is it appropriate to add this or leave that out?  And of course, no matter what I do, someone is going to be upset or complain because XYZ did or didn't happen.

That's a good point. One problem is that some people think they want all of what society and brainwashing is telling us that we should be to be a man, almost all of which is weakening us.. plus i've seen a huge, huge amount of so called 'masculinity coaches' spouting weak bs, especially the ones that talk about 'conscious relationships' 'conscious masculinity' and such.

I know you aren't on board with all that stuff, but I guess it is difficult to please the people who are looking for 'masculinity' from what they have been taught by societies bs. Personally I prefer all the traditional traits that are considered masculinity and actually are masculinity despite what we're told, as opposed to the new age crap.

As far as what's appropriate...I think Benjamin can also chime in on this as I have noted over the years how he does understand and is tuned in to the issues of masculinity and the feminization of men.  I've posted about this stuff in the forums for a while myself and have been studying this stuff for years (since i have suffered through and still working on fixing my masculinity).

Hahah funny, I wrote my response before reading this. I'm definately happy to give more input and discuss it more, but those are my initial thoughts. The thing is yes i'm very aware of all of this, can see it.. but that doesn't necessarily mean I have the solution to it all even though i've been looking for it for a long time. I do understand alot of the issues well though and what we are facing, seemingly in ways that alot of people are either blind to or ignore. (By that I don't think it applies to you guys here, but alot of people I come across in general or on social media).

Healing the feminization, healing this big tendency we've all grown up with which I can only imagine how bad it is growing up now that women hold the key to our acceptance, we have to do everything they want us to so we are approved of, 'subconscious obedience' to women and society.. I write it that way because consciously I know that I don't want to be obedient to it, but at a deeper level my responses do alot of the time reflect that. Healing the blockages to being deeply connected with our masculinity.

Some of my ideas may also be more 'full on' (that's the best word I can think of, though I don't think my ideas are too full on) than others, like some guys want to be the guy who is the good citizen, does what he is told, fits into society and all societies ideas and think that is what a man should be, wheras 'society' and conventional wisdom has never ever had my best interests at heart and especially doesn't these days in almost all areas, so I do not want this 'subconscious obedience' to society, and so called 'authority' either. I could go further into that, but it'd most likely breach some of the forum rules. I think i've said it in a way that it doesn't.

Of course the above would be done in a constructive, positive way first by embodying the man you want to be, embodying strong masculinity and being a beacon and inspiration for other men to be that, and from there push back against all the bs thrown at men by society. As opposed to destructive like Fight Club for example.

I know some people disagree but for me it would definately include becoming the best physical version of yourself, doesn't mean a bodybuilder but in good physical shape, functional, feeling good in your body, naturally high testosterone.

Anyway, gotta go do some other stuff but it might stimulate some discussion to start.

Hear hear. Healthy functional fitness and good self defence training...

[Shannon]

I'm aware of what needs to go in, but the issue I face is two things specifically:
1. Where do we draw the line between what goes into AM only and what goes into Develop Your Masculinity, and
2. No matter what I put in, someone will complain that XYZ should have gone in, or should not have.

One example: I believe that TOFM would be a necessary inclusion, because I believe that testosterone is foundational for healthy masculinity. @Shannon might choose otherwise based on his better information, expertise developing these experiences, etc.

This will never happen.  While testosterone is important for men, there are two primary issues with this idea.

1. Inducing an increased level of testosterone in a sub to develop masculinity only skews the effects the program has artificially and
   
2. The effect will only last as long as you tun the program.
   

A subliminal to focus you into and develop your masculinity should not be something you have to run forever to maintain the results.  Furthermore, it is possible that inducing this state of raised hormones for too long may result in adrenal exhaustion. Finally, how will you develop these traits accurately if you're artificially increasing your testosterone and then developing them based on that?  When the test levels drop because you stopped using the program, there will be a cognitive dissonance, because you calibrated your development on an artificial and temporary state.

We want to develop and calibrate based on your natural state, and then later on, add testosterone.  Not the other way around.

[Shannon]

@Shannon What is your plan with OF now that you're focusing on EPRHA, OGSF and SD as the main healing subs?

Perhaps it could take on more of the "special cases" niche?

I haven't finished deciding on this.

I've recently come across a really interesting idea for making progress regarding the Fear Removal Module, which would necessarily impact OF, OGSF and EHPRA as a result.  But if OF isn't as universally useful as OGSF, then OGSF should get it first.  And I can't build OGSF again so soon, especially when I have several other important things on my plate.  I don't know yet.  We shall see.

[Shannon]

One example: I believe that TOFM would be a necessary inclusion, because I believe that testosterone is foundational for healthy masculinity. @Shannon might choose otherwise based on his better information, expertise developing these experiences, etc.

Testosterone optimizer could be included in Alpha Male and would be a luxury feature that we would pay extra for in getting AM.  My idea was focusing more on the inner foundation for the masculinity sub.  But maybe Shannon could include something about testosterone in it as it's obviously a huge issue.  Testosterone levels have reached all time lows recently.

We are back to the original argument.  Testosterone should be added after the development of the masculinity and the Alpha training.  You don't develop something with a variable that will skew development, and then when development is finished, remove that variable.  That only creates a skewed development based on something that screws up the development by miscalibration during development.

[Shannon]

Here’s an idea for a sub which would help a lot if not most of the guys in the forum. I think it would be a great seller.  I want to know what Shannon and everyone else thinks of this.







“Develop your masculinity”







As you already know a lot if not most of the issues of the guys in this forum (and outside too in the world) are in large part due to a lack of strong masculinity.  Whether it be due to anti male societal programming, lack of a strong male role model growing up, being raised my single mothers etc etc…guys are struggling right now.







This sub would help you become the most masculine version of yourself.  It would also help heal trauma related to masculinity (for those that have been emasculated by their mother, abuse (sexual or non sexual), bullying etc).







I think this might be an easy sub to make as Shannon could take some of the scripting of existing subs that relates to masculinity (some of the goals in the self steam sub could be used for example as they relate to masculinity).







And of course: goals about focus, determination, setting boundaries, defending yourself from attacks, competitiveness, confidence, self reliance, fearlessness, courage. Goals about some of the stuff most guys just lack now a days in terms of masculine traits which is leading to their struggle.







Just like you have money magnet and UMS you can have this sub and alpha male.







Alpha male is to make you a top male. This sub is to make you the most masculine version of yourself.  You could probably include this sub in alpha male since it’s a multi stager but this would be a good option for those that don’t want a multi stager and just want to be more masculine and not necessarily a top male/alpha male.

Definately agree this would be a good title. Though I don't know how it would differ from AM. I posted an idea similar ages ago and thought of it kind of like a "Masculine Healing" subliminal that does some of the things Shannon mentioned in his reply to this (undoing the crap) and thought it could possibly be a way to help prepare for AM.







But then as I thought more and more and added more goals to it, it could just become AM.

The difficult part - one of them, I should say - comes in trying to define the goals.  Where does one thing begin and another end within the "masculine"?  Is it appropriate to add this or leave that out?  And of course, no matter what I do, someone is going to be upset or complain because XYZ did or didn't happen.

That's a good point. One problem is that some people think they want all of what society and brainwashing is telling us that we should be to be a man, almost all of which is weakening us.. plus i've seen a huge, huge amount of so called 'masculinity coaches' spouting weak bs, especially the ones that talk about 'conscious relationships' 'conscious masculinity' and such.







I know you aren't on board with all that stuff, but I guess it is difficult to please the people who are looking for 'masculinity' from what they have been taught by societies bs. Personally I prefer all the traditional traits that are considered masculinity and actually are masculinity despite what we're told, as opposed to the new age crap.

As far as what's appropriate...I think Benjamin can also chime in on this as I have noted over the years how he does understand and is tuned in to the issues of masculinity and the feminization of men.  I've posted about this stuff in the forums for a while myself and have been studying this stuff for years (since i have suffered through and still working on fixing my masculinity).

Hahah funny, I wrote my response before reading this. I'm definately happy to give more input and discuss it more, but those are my initial thoughts. The thing is yes i'm very aware of all of this, can see it.. but that doesn't necessarily mean I have the solution to it all even though i've been looking for it for a long time. I do understand alot of the issues well though and what we are facing, seemingly in ways that alot of people are either blind to or ignore. (By that I don't think it applies to you guys here, but alot of people I come across in general or on social media).







Healing the feminization, healing this big tendency we've all grown up with which I can only imagine how bad it is growing up now that women hold the key to our acceptance, we have to do everything they want us to so we are approved of, 'subconscious obedience' to women and society.. I write it that way because consciously I know that I don't want to be obedient to it, but at a deeper level my responses do alot of the time reflect that. Healing the blockages to being deeply connected with our masculinity.







Some of my ideas may also be more 'full on' (that's the best word I can think of, though I don't think my ideas are too full on) than others, like some guys want to be the guy who is the good citizen, does what he is told, fits into society and all societies ideas and think that is what a man should be, wheras 'society' and conventional wisdom has never ever had my best interests at heart and especially doesn't these days in almost all areas, so I do not want this 'subconscious obedience' to society, and so called 'authority' either. I could go further into that, but it'd most likely breach some of the forum rules. I think i've said it in a way that it doesn't.







Of course the above would be done in a constructive, positive way first by embodying the man you want to be, embodying strong masculinity and being a beacon and inspiration for other men to be that, and from there push back against all the bs thrown at men by society. As opposed to destructive like Fight Club for example.







I know some people disagree but for me it would definately include becoming the best physical version of yourself, doesn't mean a bodybuilder but in good physical shape, functional, feeling good in your body, naturally high testosterone.







Anyway, gotta go do some other stuff but it might stimulate some discussion to start.

A subliminal of this type, whether it be Alpha Male or something to develop masculinity, must be the most distilled version of what it is trying to accomplish.  Adding in things like workout motivation and porn destroyer and such only distracts from the essential goal of the program and divides attention, focus and energy.  That is part of why AM is a multi-stage set: to reduce that, given the number of legitimate sub-goals it had to focus on in each step.



Develop Your Masculinity, or whatever I end up calling it, is going to be a single stage program.  My vision for this program is to be a minimialist design that laser focuses on the primary root of the issue, and thus enables everything else to result as a natural consequence.  Not only do we have a limited number of stages to this (one), but in 5.11G we have a limited number of goals we can reasonably build into a program. 



So this program is about deep inner work that needs to take place to develop your masculinity.  It's not about motivating you to go exercise - proper masculinity will do that naturally.  It's not about artificially increasing testosterone, for reasons I have already discussed.  This is all about inner work, getting rid of the garbage beliefs that society has bombarded men with about what is masculine that are really just propaganda designed to weaken men and make them easier to control, thus resulting in less masculinity.  Making guys understand that masculinity is not "toxic".  Making guys understand that they can and should embrace their natural masculinity and masculine nature.  Helping guys understand what masculine actually is, now that we have all this garbage that is confusing the shit out of everyone because everyone is addicted to junk social media sites and has lost any and all ability to think for themselves.



Develop Your Masculinity isn't intended to be Alpha Male, and it will not be.  Alpha Male isn't a "luxury upgrade" of Develop Your Masculinity.  It has to be as broad and universally accessible as possible, so we can help as many guys as possible move towards becoming men.  And at the same time, we're not trying to turn guys into assholes or selfish pricks or users or abusers or any of the negative aspects of what we are told that masculinity is these days by those who have an agenda against masculinity and men.



This is minimalist.  Pure.  Core of the issue.  It's about how you define "masculine" and "man".  It's about what you accept as true.  It's about thinking for yourself and being able to think critically, so you can't be easily brainwashed by today garbage social media and news content, and you can separate the propaganda from the truth.  It's about finding and holding the right set of beliefs and the right identity and frame of reference to positively focus into your natural, positive masculinity and develop it to it's full potential.  It's about being accepting of your natural masculinity and embracing your natural masculinity, and developing it, standing strong within it and embodying it with natural strength and confidence, because it is simply what and who you are.



Lots of ideas for what to add have been floated, but they're almost all putting bandages on the symptoms, not fixing the root of the issue.  The root of the issue is that guys in many cases no longer even know what masculinity even is anymore.  They are told that being masculine is toxic.  That it's not acceptable to be masculine, never mind male.  



This program needs to halt that and put guys who use it back on track to understanding themselves as males, accepting themselves as males, accepting that masculinity is every bit as valid and important as femininity (Yin and Yang must balance and fulfill each other's weaknesses while enhancing each other's strengths for there to be harmony and success within the whole of the system, which in this case is society) and developing their natural masculinity in positive, healthy ways that aren't defined by and guided by propaganda designed to make them weak and easily controlled. 



That is my vision for this program.  Something that - when it does what it's designed to do - naturally results in all the masculine things, and guys becoming and embracing being men.



And Ben, I'm not just answering your post with this, but all the posts above yours suggesting what to put in this program.

[4Kingdoms]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid264568

As it turns out, both UMS v3 Stage 4 and DMSI v5 have too much Key Script to be possible for me to build in 5.11G, and therefore they must wait for 6G regardless of what I would like to do.

[Have at ye]

https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Shann...#pid264568

As it turns out, both UMS v3 Stage 4 and DMSI v5 have too much Key Script to be possible for me to build in 5.11G, and therefore they must wait for 6G regardless of what I would like to do.

Well, too bad! Longer waiting time for both. Let's see what ends up getting built.

[Ampersnd]

Last question related to our recent conversation, Shannon.
Would you say that it's considerably easier to handle the turmoil from OSGF after EPHRA as opposed to running OSGF by itself?
You've considered it to be an intense one.

[CatMan]

Congrats on the new release, @Shannon .

Looking forward to reading the long description of X4A-2000. Should be some very interesting things in there by the sounds of your words.

Any progress on that front to figuring out the last bits surrounding it before release?

SD will no doubt help a lot of people. It's a needed program.

Amusingly, as soon as I saw the talk of the "Masculinity Sub", this was my instant thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNJMAyeP0s

[AbundanceCH]

That's a good point. One problem is that some people think they want all of what society and brainwashing is telling us that we should be to be a man, almost all of which is weakening us.. plus i've seen a huge, huge amount of so called 'masculinity coaches' spouting weak bs, especially the ones that talk about 'conscious relationships' 'conscious masculinity' and such.

I know you aren't on board with all that stuff, but I guess it is difficult to please the people who are looking for 'masculinity' from what they have been taught by societies bs. Personally I prefer all the traditional traits that are considered masculinity and actually are masculinity despite what we're told, as opposed to the new age crap.

I too don't want any of the new age masculinity crap because frankly that's what most of us already are or were..."modern males" (for those of us that worked to undo all the brainwashing and feminizing).  

I second this and I hope Shannon will clarify exactly what the sub will be about when the time comes.  I think there's a small disconnect in what Shannon/Benjamin and myself see as masculine.

Shannon seems to be more along the lines of focusing on stoicism/ascended alpha while Benjamin and I think alike and want the more traditional masculine idea.

While I do appreciate stoicism and my women have called me stoic and like that about me I really wish I was more traditionally masculine.  A lot more confidence, drive, focus, determination, competitiveness, more aggressiveness (in terms of being a go getter).  There's so much focus on being stoic for men now a days while they struggle with drive, purpose, passion. Most guys seem to be focusing on being stoic rather than the fundamental traditional masculine traits which have served them for thousands of years.

I see this all the time..most women I come across are now the men of the past.  They are super confident, go getters, driven, focused on their goals.