Martial Arts

[Andrew]

I actually started typing up something for this thread. And after typing quite a bit and having much more, I think to get this subliminal in the right place for what I want, reality based self defense type stuff, it would be quite a bit project. I know alot of things from my experience from working security but communicating it is harder.

I have got better at it because I do teach this stuff, but if I typed up everything it would be a very huge post and Shannon would be scared to read it because of the size. I even think it would be way too much for one stage for what I think is needed for real self defense from my experience.

I have saved what I wrote incase I decide to keep writing it.

My views on this stuff are alot different than most people, from my own experience and learning from people who have also 'been there' and some of my opinions aren't popular.

But if it is going ahead and my input is wanted, I can continue with what I was writing.

The challenge I see is Shannon has experience making subliminals, but no experience in this actual area of self defense. And I and other people have experience but no idea how to word subliminals and their effect.

I hope what I have said makes some sense.

-Ben

Go for it

[About]

I'm in wing chun right now. I just wanted to post some things which i think would help for the ""technical/rapid response" version of the martial arts sub.

Something like,
I now consciously allow any part of my body to be relaxed

There's the vertical punch in wing chun, and you must be relaxed while you project your fist. Basically you are doing an uncommitted attack because if you aim for the face and they block it, you do not compromise your center or your balance because your punches are relaxed.

Something else like
I now always remain centered in my stance when needed
or
While training or using my martial art, i will always remain in my training stance

Basically, we have a horse stance in wc. sometimes I find myself slouching, or rather not putting my weight in my horse and therefore compromise my center. I can get knocked over easier and i also cannot generate as much power as if i were fully grounded in my horse.

Also last one for now: something which addresses motivation and enjoyment, as well as a regular practice schedule for the martial art. I was told that I need to do about 10 hours of kung fu a week, with the 2 classes a week that's probably about 4 hours total for me, but the other 6 I sometimes (most of the times unfortunately) don't even bother.

There are a few more, i'll post them since I know there's a long list of other subs which need to be upgraded. I'm just someone interested in this type of sub.

[Andrew]

I've done quite a bit of WC as well. Not sure I agree with the words you chose to describe some things-like horse stance (did horse stance in kajukenbo as a beginner doing karate forms and that is nowhere found in WC) but I'm sure we're thinking of the same thing.

I agree about the relaxation, it's so hard to teach that to new guys, especially when they see my large muscles. Since you're going through the WC training, I found this useful-especially being a personal trainer etc never use chain punches as exercise. It won't make you faster and it will make your punches weaker. Stick to plyometrics and weights. If you look up Professor Kernspecht he is of the same opinion, and vehemently disagrees with leung ting in the WT branch. From experience and as a hobby scientist I agree completely with kernspecht.

http://www.realisticselfdefense.net/kernspecht.html

Also if you look at victor guiterrez, he is very very muscular and moves very quickly with much ease. The first half of this video is nonsense+in class work but when they are outside you get to see him really move.

I'm in wing chun right now. I just wanted to post some things which i think would help for the ""technical/rapid response" version of the martial arts sub.

Something like,
I now consciously allow any part of my body to be relaxed

There's the vertical punch in wing chun, and you must be relaxed while you project your fist. Basically you are doing an uncommitted attack because if you aim for the face and they block it, you do not compromise your center or your balance because your punches are relaxed.

Something else like
I now always remain centered in my stance when needed
or
While training or using my martial art, i will always remain in my training stance

Basically, we have a horse stance in wc. sometimes I find myself slouching, or rather not putting my weight in my horse and therefore compromise my center. I can get knocked over easier and i also cannot generate as much power as if i were fully grounded in my horse.

Also last one for now: something which addresses motivation and enjoyment, as well as a regular practice schedule for the martial art. I was told that I need to do about 10 hours of kung fu a week, with the 2 classes a week that's probably about 4 hours total for me, but the other 6 I sometimes (most of the times unfortunately) don't even bother.

There are a few more, i'll post them since I know there's a long list of other subs which need to be upgraded. I'm just someone interested in this type of sub.

[About]

I only had time to briefly read what you said. Ill take time later to reply/read it but right now I'm actually doing a little training. My si tai gong is coming up here to train with us as well and I've only been doing this for 6 months, pretty exciting for me.

This is the school that I am a part of, but in a different area

http://kungfurichmond.com/

I'm not sure if it's called the horse, but that's what we call it in my area.

[Shannon]

That video is very interesting... what he's doing looks a lot like the stuff I was forced to do to hold my own in karate class, being physically smaller than almost everyone else at the time. This has my interest piqued even more in WC.

[About]

This is one of the "proper names" of the stance.

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/the-wing-chun-stance

There's many translations, this is one of them, but we call it horse when we're just talking about it.

Using weights seems to be discouraged in my branch because it interferes with relaxation training. You tense when you should be relaxed. Your mind can handle the difference, but does your body understand?

There is a lot of debate on how people should train. I'm only 6 months in so I'm not the most experienced person to be asking, but what I do know is relaxation and a proper stance is necessary for good kung fu.

[Spiral]

When you guys finally decide to work on these martial art subs you should implement any phrases that would force us to keep our body in the best shape we can possible for us to perform at our highest with our specific martial art whether it be flexibility, joint health, and diet.

Considering my elbow problem this would help ease the discomfort along with that biosil supplement Andrew recommended me. As of now I can't throw powerful punches with my left arm and this would be great if this type of thing is covered in the subs.

[Andrew]

Using weights seems to be discouraged in my branch because it interferes with relaxation training. You tense when you should be relaxed. Your mind can handle the difference, but does your body understand?

I understand there is a lot of debate, but it unfortunately comes to these practitioners inexperience having never been muscular, and their judgements of muscular people that are untrained and tense along with superstition about how muscles work. To put it bluntly from experience, education and the numbers on force calculation machines weights or resistance exercise do not interfere with relaxation training. It comes down to brain and neural development... muscle memory, that's where speed comes from. If this logic were universally true the fastest 100m sprinters in the world would not lift weights or do plyometrics. They do. Having big muscles does not cause tension, lack of training causes tension, muscular or no. I find it very unfortunate that the traditional instructors simply do not know what they are talking about when they discourage resistance exercise (weights or plyos) as they do not know these elements are separate. Having gone through that type of training, and being instructed to chain punch regularly, my speed and power went down with it. I could go into the detail on a neuromuscular level from an anatomy & physiology point of view as well but I don't have a ton of time. I just strongly urge you and everyone else to separate training and exercise. Combining them just turns into bad training, developing incorrect technique and the wrong muscle composition. Sparring-the kind with gloves and headgear is some of the worst training possible unless you're training for UFC (in which case it's almost perfect).

Pay attention to the way you are training your martial art and the way you are growing/re-composing your muscles to benefit you in that martial art - Are you training your muscles for power, strength, or stamina? Doing chain punch exercises is similar to speed bag training (stamina training- oxidizing muscles, pumping out lactic acid, making them last), do you want to fight a multi round boxing match or do you want to end your fight and save your life? If your answer is ending the fight, as a martial artist does, then strength and power are the best aid and therefore weights or plyometrics. Doing low-resistance exercise develops the muscles to cope with low resistance and those chain punches will have no power behind them. Powerlifting and Marathon Running are not compatible and have two opposite muscle compositions. For martial arts, you are saving your life, you want power. For UFC/Sparring/Sport it's a balance depending on sport. Train your body to react for a martial art, or train it for a sport, but you can't do both. Don't let any instructor tell you weights will slow you down. I was told that for many years, it simply isn't true. If it was, no 100m sprinters or ANY ATHLETE from any other sport relying on EXPLOSIVENESS and ACCURACY IN TECHNIQUE would have champions that all lifted weights & engaged in plyometrics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics

[Benjamin]

Programming in any type of stance is a negative. I believe in learning to hit from passive stances so not to give it away, and also to be able to hit without readying yourself or winding up. The same with other levels of force, like restraint.

As for chain puncing like in Wing Chun/Tsun, not a fan, not much power there.

Anyway, what I was thinking was pretty broad, so I will try to sum up what is important.

-Speed.
-Explosive Power and speed in strikes. (I say strikes, because if you have the statement as punches it will limit you to that, I actually don't train any punches at all. Only open hand, elbows, knees and other simple stuff.)
-Full body power and explosiveness and fitness.
-Non-telegraphic movement.
-Motivation, focus, passion.
-Awareness, of the environment, possible dangers, of yourself.
-Fear management.
-Offensive focus. (Being defensive for real isn't a good idea)
-Learning to turn on controlled aggression, and switch it off when over.
-Simplicity in physical tools and mindset.
-Forward drive. Overwhelming the opponent.
-Being comfortable with confrontation. (Though this was achieved for me with experience, I don't know if it's a good idea to have this in a subliminal or not.)
-Training for effectiveness.
-Being prepared to go physical, being able to act without thinking when it's the right time.
-Being able to let go of the trauma of actually having to hurt somebody else and the trauma of the situation. (I just thought of this while typing. If you have to defend yourself, it's going to leave a mark mentally. I do this for a job and it still effects me mentally and I think about it too much after a situation.)
-Reading an attacker. Reading bodylanguage of a possible attack incase you need to act first. (this is also an experience thing, and I don't think it can be covered in a subliminal.)
-Awareness of the use of force continuum, being able to use enough force for the situation and not too much.
-Seizing the initiative asap in a fight.
-Awareness of multiple attackers (his friends or whatever) or possible weapons. (another one that's hard to have in a subliminal.)
-Being prepared and comfortable to train with contact and resistance. Letting go of ego.
-Being prepared and wanting to train hard and regularly.

Ok that's what i've thought of for now, alot of this isn't covered in most martial arts, but is important. What I do is alot different than most normal beliefs in this area. And this is from experience and going of of my way to find the most effective training.

-Ben

[Andrew]

Don't know where you live, but those are all pretty consistent within my circle. Advanced wing chun uses punches very selectively as well. I never punch unless to the lower abdomen but those less lethal strikes are usually a waste of time. I have gravel and stone punching bags that teach the new guys real quickly the drawbacks of punches. Thats what happens when you punch someones skull-you break your hand. Perfect technique can only save your wrists the fragile hand bones are not suitable for that kind of impact. Punching is only popular because of gloves, unless you want to do years of knuckle and hand hardening techniques, retire with arthritis and never play a musical instrument.

[SantaRich]

Don't know where you live, but those are all pretty consistent within my circle. Advanced wing chun uses punches very selectively as well. I never punch unless to the lower abdomen but those less lethal strikes are usually a waste of time. I have gravel and stone punching bags that teach the new guys real quickly the drawbacks of punches. Thats what happens when you punch someones skull-you break your hand. Perfect technique can only save your wrists the fragile hand bones are not suitable for that kind of impact. Punching is only popular because of gloves, unless you want to do years of knuckle and hand hardening techniques, retire with arthritis and never play a musical instrument.

Andrew,

I was wondering if there would be a way to involve the internal martial arts in a sub. I know wing chun is more internal, but also styles like aikido,bagua zhang, xing yi, and tai chi off the top of my head. Also what is your understanding of the softer arts from a physiological perspective. I have never actually studied any of the above arts, in a martial way, but I did learn a qi gong form that has tai chi movements in it, and there is alot more than meets the eye, I am sure the same of wing chun.
Also wondering if you have heard of or read any of peter ralston's books. And it was said that nobody ever beat chen man ching in a fight, even though he didn't like to fight and only studied tai chi for the health benefits.

[Andrew]

Andrew,

I was wondering if there would be a way to involve the internal martial arts in a sub. I know wing chun is more internal, but also styles like aikido,bagua zhang, xing yi, and tai chi off the top of my head. Also what is your understanding of the softer arts from a physiological perspective. I have never actually studied any of the above arts, in a martial way, but I did learn a qi gong form that has tai chi movements in it, and there is alot more than meets the eye, I am sure the same of wing chun.
Also wondering if you have heard of or read any of peter ralston's books. And it was said that nobody ever beat chen man ching in a fight, even though he didn't like to fight and only studied tai chi for the health benefits.

Hi SantaRich,

Unfortunately I do not know the answer to that. I am no longer involved in "internal" martial arts, although I think even making a distinction between internal and external is inappropriate. As far as a "martial" art, I have not yet seen sufficient evidence of things such as Tai Chi working as real life self defense. I do respect these arts as a method of self improvement and enhancing health. However, in this day and age with the advent of video and skepticism, extraordinary claims require hard proof. Many martial arts were watered down into sports, and lost their reputation as a useful form of self defense. All martial arts now in a way must re-prove themselves or adapt if they want to stand the test of time. So while I see it entirely possibly chen man ching was undefeated, evidence of the past is not so valid to todays society-including myself. It's also likely the case his tai-chi, is different than most tai-chi, and the artist himself could have been incredible regardless of art practiced on paper.

I do know that, during my early training thinking of concepts such as Qi helped during training. Later I found that these visualizations made no difference once I learned fine motor control, strike speed, and reading an opponents intentions, force or next move. Am I using Qi? I suppose if I am or am not, I wouldn't know. I am able to strike at a speed that only one instructor from any martial art I've studied under was ever able to block (of course this was after I got fine control over muscle bursts. In a physiology sense, I wonder if it is just raising the action potential higher and higher-almost twitching before contracting, causes a huge burst. You can feel the energy just waiting to explode once you learn to control it. I suppose some call this Qi.). Wing Chun when examined closely, is an extremely scientific art with mathematical reasoning and in depth study of mechanical advantage behind every programmed response. There are Wing Chun practitioners I've found extremely talented who say they use or believe in Qi. I've also found those that are extremely talented that do not. To me internal and external is only a differentiation applied in the mind, there is only one martial art and thats of the human body-with unique variances among body types. External cannot exist without internal, and vice versa. Focusing on just one, is limiting ones self, as I would say a sport karate limits themselves, as well as a strict aikido practitioner limits themselves as badly as the karateka. I have slapped aikido teachers around, because they could not deal with a balanced and rooted attack, nor were they ever conditioned to take a hit. I fear for their students if they actually have to use their knowledge to defend themselves, both the typical karateka and aikido are incomplete in their training. This is why MMA started, however it is not the "solution". MMA in general, has become focused on sport, and is brutish and arrogant as its founders. "MMA" is like a new martial art, and over time it will mature into different branches and go through the same process all martial arts have. Yes, there are complete classic martial arts by the way. Judo used to be complete including strikes, tons of groundwork, etc. Some forms of Karate are complete. Hapkido seems fairly complete. Ninpo is complete but it is very cult like. Sport, modern law and the advent of the gun is what caused every martial art to deteriorate, and since open bloody violent challenges and tournaments are no longer legal as they were in ancient china...I'm afraid the only true way to know is through science, video documentation, law enforcement studies (German S.E.K. use Wing Chun, don't know if its the standard but there's plenty of videos of them practicing it...), etc.

Either that, or believe. That used to be enough for me. As much as I want to simply believe in ancient masters, superhuman powers and extraordinary feats, I fail to see how they are not just as exaggerated as the myths of greece. If not, proof...hard proof.

To sum everything up, I don't know how a subliminal could help on an internal art but I've explained my thoughts on it. Maybe Shannon and Benjamin would have some insights.

[SantaRich]

Andrew,

I was wondering if there would be a way to involve the internal martial arts in a sub. I know wing chun is more internal, but also styles like aikido,bagua zhang, xing yi, and tai chi off the top of my head. Also what is your understanding of the softer arts from a physiological perspective. I have never actually studied any of the above arts, in a martial way, but I did learn a qi gong form that has tai chi movements in it, and there is alot more than meets the eye, I am sure the same of wing chun.
Also wondering if you have heard of or read any of peter ralston's books. And it was said that nobody ever beat chen man ching in a fight, even though he didn't like to fight and only studied tai chi for the health benefits.

Hi SantaRich,

Unfortunately I do not know the answer to that. I am no longer involved in "internal" martial arts, although I think even making a distinction between internal and external is inappropriate. As far as a "martial" art, I have not yet seen sufficient evidence of things such as Tai Chi working as real life self defense. I do respect these arts as a method of self improvement and enhancing health. However, in this day and age with the advent of video and skepticism, extraordinary claims require hard proof. Many martial arts were watered down into sports, and lost their reputation as a useful form of self defense. All martial arts now in a way must re-prove themselves or adapt if they want to stand the test of time. So while I see it entirely possibly chen man ching was undefeated, evidence of the past is not so valid to todays society-including myself. It's also likely the case his tai-chi, is different than most tai-chi, and the artist himself could have been incredible regardless of art practiced on paper.

I do know that, during my early training thinking of concepts such as Qi helped during training. Later I found that these visualizations made no difference once I learned fine motor control, strike speed, and reading an opponents intentions, force or next move. Am I using Qi? I suppose if I am or am not, I wouldn't know. I am able to strike at a speed that only one instructor from any martial art I've studied under was ever able to block (of course this was after I got fine control over muscle bursts. In a physiology sense, I wonder if it is just raising the action potential higher and higher-almost twitching before contracting, causes a huge burst. You can feel the energy just waiting to explode once you learn to control it. I suppose some call this Qi.). Wing Chun when examined closely, is an extremely scientific art with mathematical reasoning and in depth study of mechanical advantage behind every programmed response. There are Wing Chun practitioners I've found extremely talented who say they use or believe in Qi. I've also found those that are extremely talented that do not. To me internal and external is only a differentiation applied in the mind, there is only one martial art and thats of the human body-with unique variances among body types. External cannot exist without internal, and vice versa. Focusing on just one, is limiting ones self, as I would say a sport karate limits themselves, as well as a strict aikido practitioner limits themselves as badly as the karateka. I have slapped aikido teachers around, because they could not deal with a balanced and rooted attack, nor were they ever conditioned to take a hit. I fear for their students if they actually have to use their knowledge to defend themselves, both the typical karateka and aikido are incomplete in their training. This is why MMA started, however it is not the "solution". MMA in general, has become focused on sport, and is brutish and arrogant as its founders. "MMA" is like a new martial art, and over time it will mature into different branches and go through the same process all martial arts have. Yes, there are complete classic martial arts by the way. Judo used to be complete including strikes, tons of groundwork, etc. Some forms of Karate are complete. Hapkido seems fairly complete. Ninpo is complete but it is very cult like. Sport, modern law and the advent of the gun is what caused every martial art to deteriorate, and since open bloody violent challenges and tournaments are no longer legal as they were in ancient china...I'm afraid the only true way to know is through science, video documentation, law enforcement studies (German S.E.K. use Wing Chun, don't know if its the standard but there's plenty of videos of them practicing it...), etc.

Either that, or believe. That used to be enough for me. As much as I want to simply believe in ancient masters, superhuman powers and extraordinary feats, I fail to see how they are not just as exaggerated as the myths of greece. If not, proof...hard proof.

To sum everything up, I don't know how a subliminal could help on an internal art but I've explained my thoughts on it. Maybe Shannon and Benjamin would have some insights.

Hi Andrew,

thanks for your response, it definitely made me think, reflect and ponder.

I don't blame you for needing proof, but unfortunately like anything spiritual or religious, there is no proof I could show you. I will attempt to describe some of my thoughts and experiences in concern to what I am talking about. Now mind you, my martial experience is limited, most I have had recently was about a year and a half ago training with some guys I know in kali, escrima, some wing chun they picked up in books and I think it was tiger claw he had studied. But again, I am not confident in martial my abilities.

But in terms of the qi, or chi kung, I know it is a real.....consciousness, experience, whatever one would want to call it. As said by someone wiser than me, (the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name). It is not so much a concept or visualization as it is a state of awareness or feeling. I remember after one practice sitting down afterwards, physically pushed, not in a I will be sore tomorrow way, but could feel the energy coursing through my body. How would I describe the energy feeling, imagine your body as house and a draft blowing through the house, that is what it felt like. Now for that practice I never did any visualizations. It is not something that the conscious mind can understand, the woman I learned that form from said that chi is kind of shy, you will experience it when you are not looking for it. Now while I agree you cannot truly separate external from internal arts, they go about getting you to the same place differently. To my knowledge there is no other martial art that has you walking the circle like in bagua zhang, or moving extremely slow as in tai chi. Now the true purpose of those practices are to move you into that heightened state of awareness.

In my opinion, what I would consider chi(qi) to be would be a working together of body, mind, and soul. To a very high degree. And chi (qi) is just one name for it, prana, the great spirit, a name is a name, to some degree.

So in short, to me it, or something exists, I am not trying to change anyone's mind or make anyone believe me, but I would rather live in a world that still has magic in it, where I can't explain everything.

If you want to know more, or read or watch who resonates with me in terms of more internal that physical, I recommend Peter Ralston and B.K. Frantzis.

And what are the benefits, think of the more physical martial arts killing a bull by one punch, whereas more internal slapping instead of punching. Is it possible? Is it possible to kill a bull with one punch? But there is so much more to it than that!

If any of that makes any sense

[Benjamin]

I have felt chi from doing a little bit of spring forest qigong and tai chi and the 5 tibetan rites.

As for applying chi or tai chi for fighting. No chance. I will never be convinced of that until I see it. The same as Aikido, it's not a functional fighting art at all.

-Ben