About's WM2.0 Journal

[SargeMaximus]

I'm not sure I understand what you want advice on specifically.

You pretty much answered it in your reply, thank you.

I happen to believe, based on my research and observations, that humans are naturally programmed at a genetic level to maximize genetic diversity and survival opportunities for the species. In other words, humans are designed to have sex with every possible mate, and reproduce at every possible opportunity. This fits what you are talking about. It's also why we as a species are ranked second in global population only to insects, which are much smaller and have nothing but instinct to go on for reproductive limits[...]

A woman having a piece of metal on her finger only means what it is agreed to mean. If she honors her commitment to the vow she made to her husband by actually getting married, she will not have sex with you regardless. If she does not, then the ring on her finger does not mean much. But when you get involved with a married women, you are opening up a major can of worms that can very realistically get you killed. Regardless of how much you may only be acting out of your natural genetic instructions.

Sound advice, and I realize that. But my commitment to mankind is more than my sex drive. I believe that marriage and the idea of love/monogamy is destroying the higher levels of consciousness that you seem to be aware of and yet seem to tie that enlightened perspective in with monogamy/love.

I'm glad you made this response as I'm able to further explore my own perspective on the matter.

Humans ARE animals, but we can use our brains. That's basically how I see it. Like it or not, to even reproduce you have to be somewhat animalistic. If you're too "in your head/intellectual" women don't get turned on, as they are emotional creatures of instinct. We may have the brains, but we have not yet been able to effectively mate without our animalistic nature. Unless you count artificial insemination and whatnot. (Something I hope will be overcome in the next round of evolution tbh)

A human who is driven by their genetic code alone is not a man or woman, but an animal. S/He will resort to the lowest of behaviors to get his/her genetic instructions acted out and fulfilled. This is why there is so much prevalence of pregnancy among the least educated, and why shows like Jerry Springer exist: these people are not thinking, they are just acting on animal instinct. A man or woman who chooses to be his or her full potential is above that, recognizes that an animal is beneath him or herself, and has too much self respect, self esteem and self value to do such things. The more high value a particular person is, the harder it is to mate with them; thus, highly educated people and the very wealthy generally have far fewer children per capita than the type of person you see going on Jerry Springer.

So perhaps I'm so high value I'll never mate? Well that kills. I mean seriously, we gonna let the "high value" genes die off just because we can't stand to be "animals"? Isn't it best to put down the ego sometimes and do what needs to be done?

My biggest problem in life is that I've always seen myself as "higher value" than everyone. And you're right, it is VERY hard to mate this way. In fact, so far (for me) it's been impossible. I may have a good job, a nice income, I'm on my way to starting on the path I ACTUALLY want to be on, never done drugs, never been drunk, never been in jail, never this, never that. Never laid.

I mean great, I'm high value, whoop-dee doo. But it's about time nature figures out a way to mate the high value types and fill the world up with THOSE children instead of the low-value people who populate the world and bring it ever closer to destruction and certainly make the world a miserable place to live in.

But you know what? I'm not going to wait for "nature" to save me any more than I'm gonna wait for "God". A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and I sincerely hope that I can be an example to everyone that shows that you can indeed surpass the "low value" nature without losing the "perks". Does this make sense?

And hey, if my life has to be in danger to achieve this, then so be it. I doubt any revolutionary in the history of the world ever shied away from what they believed to be right just because it might mean their death.

At the same time, these people are more sought after for mating privileges because - in part - they are particular, and they are high value. Part of expressing high value is being able to and willing to pick and be choosy with whom you share your genetic material for reproductive purposes. This is why a woman who is greeted by a man with disinterest will often seek his interest, and even pursue him. He is demonstrating high value by his disinterest, which signals that he has other, possibly better, options.

I disagree. It's not so much disinterest as it is purpose. A man on a mission is less interested in the woman than he is with his mission. He doesn't have to be choosy, he just is. DHV is a pick-up routine that is partially accurate, but not entirely. Yes "high value" people ARE demonstrating high value, but it's who they are that is high value, NOT the fact that they need to create it.

Why does being yourself work so well with women? Because it demonstrates high value. If you have to pretend or be fake to get a woman, you are demonstrating that you don't believe in yourself yet and are not living life the way you want to which, of course, demonstrates low value. Has nothing to do with marriage or whatnot, at least not in my opinion.

In the end, you must choose whether you will be a man, in control of his sex drive, or an animal, being enslaved to it.

Well, this is a bit too black and white for me to be honest. We are animals by nature, you can never separate the human from the being until you die.

You say that love makes one's heart finite, but you just said that you were polyamorous, which is the very thing you now claim love is not.

Perhaps to you. To me, it's like this:

I like who I want to like, and fuck (hopefully) who I want to fuck, and ignore who I want to ignore.

If that makes me [insert descriptive term here] then so be it. I only use these terms to try and translate what I'm saying, but perhaps I chose poorly.

What love is, depends on what you make it. In the beginning of every relationship there is a period of time during which a couple makes and sets rules that will govern their relationship. The vast majority of the time, these rules are set by both parties to "default", which is to say, they just go with what society, religion, family, and expectations from others tell them to go with, and never even consider that they have the option of setting rules any other way.

And yet I have had multiple girlfriends at the same time, more than once, who all knew about one another and knew I was having romantic/sexual relations with all of them, specifically because I stated up front, during that rule-making period, that I was going to do exactly that, and if they wanted to be with me as more than a friend, they would have to choose to deal with that fact. In the beginning I did this because I was simply tired of being unhappy with having one woman who was what I wanted or needed in some areas, but not in others, who obstructed me from being happy in the rest of those areas. The idea that "there is someONE for everyone" didn't seem to work, so I changed the rules and let the chips fall where they may. And when I did this, openly, honestly, and stood my ground, a magical thing happened: I ended up with every woman who expressed interest going from "I could never do that." to "I want to be your girlfriend regardless." Usually in about 24-48 hours.

I'd love to know how to do this. I admit I'm not blunt because I rarely think it'll work so yes, manipulation is a game I play. It never works, I'm getting tired of it, but I haven't figured out how to be honest without being "too honest", if you know what I mean.

In my experience, honesty antagonizes people and drives them away.

The difference between what you have been proposing, and what I am proposing is that I am being brutally, blatantly honest and I genuinely don't care if they do or don't want to be with me as more than friends. I let them decide, based on the whole truth, and I make sure they know well in advance exactly what they're agreeing to by being with me. If you do this, and you present yourself as a high enough value target, they will surprise you.

I'm interested as to why you were able to deduce I am not honest. I mean, I'm not (honestly ), well sometimes anyways- but what did I write that made you think so?

Now that's not to say that I always want multiple simultaneous girlfriends, but if I do, it's just a matter of being honest and up front about my needs, or wants or desires, and then letting the chips fall where they may.

They go for it because they recognize that a man who can do that has a lot going for him. Women value boldness and honesty in a man far more than you might realize, specifically because they deal so commonly with people who are weak and trying to lie their way into whatever they want. A woman will often take me up on a relationship even if she doesn't like knowing I have other girlfriends specifically because she knows that if I have the balls to be honest about that, I'm going to have no reason to be dishonest about anything at all. She knows where she stands with me, and she never has to worry about being cheated on or lied to, because by my rules, it's impossible to cheat on her (cheating means breaking the rules) since the rules I set specifically allow me to have as many girlfriends as I want. And at that point, what have I got to gain versus lose by lying? I have nothing to gain, and every man's dream to lose. So on top of being honest because I have honor as a man, I am honest because it would be idiotically and unbearably stupid for me to lie.

Like I said, I'd love to know how to do this. Reading recommendations perhaps?

On the other hand, a guy who is willing to have sex with a married woman is displaying low self esteem, low self respect, low value, and no consideration for those around him. He is acting selfishly without thought, as an animal expressing it's genetic instructions, and so is the female he is mating with. Neither respects each other or their relationships or partners, and it always ends badly.

I disagree here. What if the girl never knew there was another way? You said it yourself that most people just go to the default ways society has set up for relationships. Why is marriage any different? Surely it's better for people to be free and go through the pain of change than be miserable in something that's quite unnatural, is it not?

Like your subs man. You always say we gotta go through the rough patches to get to where we want to go, and I agree with you. In fact, I agree with most everything you're saying here except when it comes to some kind of morality. I'm quite A-moral, and realize that morality, laws, altruism (read Atlas Shrugged by any chance?) and all that are simply constructs created by men from a primitive time. Times are changing, and it's time we change with em.

Long ago, before I created AM, I was at a bookstore one night when I had a woman catch my eye who I just could not ignore. I walked over and we started talking, and it quickly became apparent that she was just as irresistibly attracted. We left together and went out to dinner, where while holding my hands, she hung her head and - clearly not wanting to - confessed to being married, with kids.

But I was so enthralled by my nether regions (having had no sex for two or three years before that) that I happily deluded myself into ignoring that little fact, and we ended up having sex in her car several times that night. I assumed that she had the common sense not to tell her husband, but as fate would have it, she was an emotional core personality type and had a serious guilt complex and told him everything. He of course promptly showed up on my doorstep within an hour of me pulling my dick out of his wife, and shoved a loaded gun in my face. His hand was shaking so badly with rage that I am not entirely sure he'd have hit me even at point blank range. The only thing that kept me alive that night, I believe, was the fact that I knew I had been in the wrong, and I remorsefully surrendered to whatever punishment he was wanting to give me.

Let me tell you this. Having a loaded gun shoved in your face is a life changing event. The genuine and imminent threat of death is something you have to really work hard to become comfortable with, and I guarantee you that you aren't. You may not meet with a gun in your face the first time you do it, or the second or the third, but sooner or later it or something worse will happen. And a man killing you in a fit of rage for having adulterous sex with his wife is not exactly a slam dunk case of he goes to jail. He might walk, and then finish the job.

Yeah I totally understand. I've had a few near-death experiences myself, and I do indeed, each time, surrender to the will of the universe. It's an amazing calm. In fact, I believe it to be the state most desirable to live life in, but it's hard to duplicate unless you are facing death in the face.

What could be learned from this, however, is to perhaps do it where even if she tells said guy, you can't be traced? Like a motel or something?

I mean, he showed up at your doorstep. Why did you take her to your house??

I have also been shot at with live ammunition, although that was by gang bangers who were breaking into a store I was acting as security for. That is also something you will never forget, and it also takes a lot of practice to learn to handle with less than terror, and again, I can almost guarantee you - you haven't had that kind of experience.

If after having a threat of imminent death presented to you, by gun, knife, bare hands or whatever, you are still doing what triggered it - you are either stupid, or you are too big and/or skilled to be smart.

Again, I agree. You can, however, learn how to avoid such things.

One of the experiences I speak of in my own life was in my construction job. I once helped a fellow worker unload some floor sheets to a second-story floor. Well, the floor beams weren't nailed down and they toppled and I broke through. When I saw that happen, I knew falling was imminent, and I knew I'd either survive or not. By a miracle that I attributed to God back then (I was religious in those days) but even now, can't describe it any other way than feeling a giant hand grab me and move me into position so that everything that was falling would build around me, I survived. Believe me when I say that had I not landed EXACTLY how I did, I would have died right then and there. 1500lbs of wood fell on top of me, and the floor beneath me broke almost completely through, holding together by a quarter inch or so of wood.

The point I'm making here is I learned to nail the floor down FIRST, and THEN unload things. That situation will never happen again. So too, I believe, in other areas of life.

I am not proud to have done what I did, and I learned the hard way that you don't play with a married woman. I also know that what you do will come back to you. So one day if you play with married women, you can expect that if you ever get married, you will probably have to deal with paybacks. And that, as they say, is a bitch.

Don't think you'll ever get married? Never say never. The right female comes along and you fall deeply enough in love and you'll find that it's all you can do to stop from dragging her down the aisle. Especially if you have kids with her. Marriage is a way of stabilizing and protecting a family.

Learning from the mistakes of others is the highest form of wisdom. Don't make the mistakes I have made. You'll get a lot further in life that way.

I thank you for the insight, and again, like I said, I agree with most you are saying. I just have a slightly different outlook is all. For example: I believe that we are all "high value", just by being human beings. Who knows when someone will take up that perspective? If they take it up in the middle of a job, they might quit and become the next Gandhi, if in the middle of a marriage, they might have an affair. Either way, we all take our path in life eventually.

[Shannon]

It is getting late and I am tired, but you raise too many important points to not respond thoroughly. My impression after reading what you wrote can be summed up as... you haven't been successful with what you tried, so you're going to do it this way, regardless of hat anyone else points out, and you're also going to find a way to justify it. In other words, you are going to do what you want to do, and see what you want to believe, and that's that. Your choice, and good luck with it. Try not to win the Darwin Award before you get past it.

That doesn't give me much incentive to reply, but some of your points I would like to respond to at least so you understand where I was coming from a little better.

I happen to believe, based on my research and observations, that humans are naturally programmed at a genetic level to maximize genetic diversity and survival opportunities for the species. In other words, humans are designed to have sex with every possible mate, and reproduce at every possible opportunity. This fits what you are talking about. It's also why we as a species are ranked second in global population only to insects, which are much smaller and have nothing but instinct to go on for reproductive limits[...]

A woman having a piece of metal on her finger only means what it is agreed to mean. If she honors her commitment to the vow she made to her husband by actually getting married, she will not have sex with you regardless. If she does not, then the ring on her finger does not mean much. But when you get involved with a married women, you are opening up a major can of worms that can very realistically get you killed. Regardless of how much you may only be acting out of your natural genetic instructions.

Sound advice, and I realize that. But my commitment to mankind is more than my sex drive. I believe that marriage and the idea of love/monogamy is destroying the higher levels of consciousness that you seem to be aware of and yet seem to tie that enlightened perspective in with monogamy/love.

You seem to be implying that you have a commitment to mankind, but the genes are mindless and selfish. Your stated commitment in all this is to yourself, and nobody else.

Marriage is useful for certain things, and not useful for others. Levels of consciousness have nothing to do with it. It is a choice you either make, or don't make. You are assuming that I tie the two together, and simultaneously seem to be making excuses to allow yourself to ignore that two married people have made a vow to one another, and that inevitably, someone (and probably several someones) will get hurt by your actions if you ignore that fact. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Humans ARE animals, but we can use our brains. That's basically how I see it. Like it or not, to even reproduce you have to be somewhat animalistic. If you're too "in your head/intellectual" women don't get turned on, as they are emotional creatures of instinct. We may have the brains, but we have not yet been able to effectively mate without our animalistic nature. Unless you count artificial insemination and whatnot. (Something I hope will be overcome in the next round of evolution tbh)

The human body is animal in nature. The human is not just a body, however. It also consists of the mind, and the emotions, among other things that are non-physical.

All humans are or are not emotional creatures of instinct to a roughly equal degree, not just male or female humans. In the past, I was most definitely driven completely by my emotions, and later my reproductive drive. Now I am driven by a balance of my mind, emotions, and instincts, along with the understanding I have of the world around me and how it and the things in it work. There are times when I am more or less driven by my need for sex, but I am not controlled by my sex drive anymore. I decide when, with whom, how often, where, how, etc.

The body alone is the animal expression of the human creature. The rest is what makes us human, and not just animals. You can choose to focus through your mind/emotions and ignore your body, or through your body and ignore your mind/emotions, or through a balance of these.

The current human reproductive method does require animalistic action, and that's not a problem. The problem comes when you allow that animalistic action to become you, take you over, control you - instead of controlling and directing it.

A human who is driven by their genetic code alone is not a man or woman, but an animal. S/He will resort to the lowest of behaviors to get his/her genetic instructions acted out and fulfilled. This is why there is so much prevalence of pregnancy among the least educated, and why shows like Jerry Springer exist: these people are not thinking, they are just acting on animal instinct. A man or woman who chooses to be his or her full potential is above that, recognizes that an animal is beneath him or herself, and has too much self respect, self esteem and self value to do such things. The more high value a particular person is, the harder it is to mate with them; thus, highly educated people and the very wealthy generally have far fewer children per capita than the type of person you see going on Jerry Springer.

So perhaps I'm so high value I'll never mate? Well that kills. I mean seriously, we gonna let the "high value" genes die off just because we can't stand to be "animals"? Isn't it best to put down the ego sometimes and do what needs to be done?

You seem here to have exchanged logic for sarcasm. High value always has options to mate and reproduce because they can have anyone they want. If high value chooses to mate with mow value, then they do. If they choose to mate with high value, then they do. I'm not the best at "gaming" women, but I get what I want. It may take me a little longer than other guys sometimes, but I do it. And it's getting easier and easier as time goes on, because my value is increasing steadily.

My biggest problem in life is that I've always seen myself as "higher value" than everyone. And you're right, it is VERY hard to mate this way. In fact, so far (for me) it's been impossible. I may have a good job, a nice income, I'm on my way to starting on the path I ACTUALLY want to be on, never done drugs, never been drunk, never been in jail, never this, never that. Never laid.

Perhaps your view of yourself was not shared by others. Perhaps it came across in a negative way that repelled them. Perhaps it was an expression of ego instead of reality, a psychological defense mechanism for countering subconscious feelings of inferiority? Or perhaps you fear women subconsciously, or something about the mating process? There are dozens of reasons why you might think you are high value and not get laid. You might even actually BE high value and have a hard time getting laid, if you're doing something wrong and don't yet understand what that thing is.

I mean great, I'm high value, whoop-dee doo. But it's about time nature figures out a way to mate the high value types and fill the world up with THOSE children instead of the low-value people who populate the world and bring it ever closer to destruction and certainly make the world a miserable place to live in.

High value gets laid. Nature's interested in the baser instincts, and the survival of the fittest says that high intelligence, or otherwise high value genes will find a way to survive regardless, or they weren't actually all that high value. Humanity has been in a downward spiral evolutionarily for a while now, because we have taken the challenge to survival out of our environment and no longer have anything to strive for - at least in "developed" countries.

But you know what? I'm not going to wait for "nature" to save me any more than I'm gonna wait for "God". A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and I sincerely hope that I can be an example to everyone that shows that you can indeed surpass the "low value" nature without losing the "perks". Does this make sense?

Sometimes, you just gotta get fucked. I understand. Really I do.

And hey, if my life has to be in danger to achieve this, then so be it. I doubt any revolutionary in the history of the world ever shied away from what they believed to be right just because it might mean their death.

I would hardly call you a revolutionary. In fact you're doing what lower value or beta males have always done down through history to get their genes propagated. Whatever it takes. That's actually how humans began evolving intelligence. Some guy all that time ago discovered that he couldn't best the alpha, but he could bribe a female for sex if he brought her food. She chose him, smarter but not stronger, and his genes began to propagate. As the behavior caught on, the benefits were enough to make those genes - higher intelligence - stick around. So us small guys with big brains are evolved from sneaky bastards who did whatever it took to get laid. People judge me as being unimportant all the time because of my body type. But I'd say my brain more than makes up for that, and using my brain, I have found ways to access all the eggs I could ever want access to. I choose not to access the eggs of all the females I have available to me in that way for various reasons, but that's not to say I could not if I chose to.

At the same time, these people are more sought after for mating privileges because - in part - they are particular, and they are high value. Part of expressing high value is being able to and willing to pick and be choosy with whom you share your genetic material for reproductive purposes. This is why a woman who is greeted by a man with disinterest will often seek his interest, and even pursue him. He is demonstrating high value by his disinterest, which signals that he has other, possibly better, options.

I disagree. It's not so much disinterest as it is purpose. A man on a mission is less interested in the woman than he is with his mission. He doesn't have to be choosy, he just is. DHV is a pick-up routine that is partially accurate, but not entirely. Yes "high value" people ARE demonstrating high value, but it's who they are that is high value, NOT the fact that they need to create it.

I don't have to be choosy, but I sure as hell don't want 3,000 kids to feed. I don't have to be choosy, but I sure as hell don't want to have kids before I become a millionaire and possibly lose my shot because I can't focus on making money as effectively anymore. I don't have to be choosy, but I don't want my kids to have diseases, deformities, disorders, addictions or just plain be ugly when they're born. But I think you're misunderstanding my point here. When I say disinterest signals higher value, I mean it signals that to her - faking it only worked until women were aware of the fakery. It's not a pick-up routine to be genuinely disinterested and have women genuinely be attracted as a result. I can attest to that first hand.

Why does being yourself work so well with women? Because it demonstrates high value. If you have to pretend or be fake to get a woman, you are demonstrating that you don't believe in yourself yet and are not living life the way you want to which, of course, demonstrates low value. Has nothing to do with marriage or whatnot, at least not in my opinion.

I concur.

In the end, you must choose whether you will be a man, in control of his sex drive, or an animal, being enslaved to it.

Well, this is a bit too black and white for me to be honest. We are animals by nature, you can never separate the human from the being until you die.

Humans among all the animals have the potential to be whatever they choose to be. That means you can choose to e nothing more than a gene slave sperm donor animal... or you can rise to your full potential as an intelligent, wise, understanding creature which happens to be focused through an animal body in order to experience the limitations of the physical world.

The sex drive is genetic, and emotional, and in both cases primarily ruled by the subconscious, which never rests. So you must control it while you are conscious, or it will control you. A man who is slave to his sex drive is not a man, but a slave and an animal, seeking to express his genes any way possible. He is not a leader, because he is a slave. That is low value, and that is why desperation chases away the women.

Genuine self control is as powerful an attractant to women as genuine self confidence. As a case in point, I know a woman who is interested in me who I have had sexual access to three times. Three times now, out of the five times I have been in her presence, I reasonably could have had sex with her. And yet, even after she took her clothes off and laid down on my bed and even spread her legs for me - two different times - I did not respond by having sex with her.

Did I want to? Yes. But I controlled myself, because I used my brain and I knew that it would cause problems. And what is the result of my self control? She wants me even more every time I refuse her. Whereas it was possible with great effort on my part the first time, I now have her doing everything but forcing me. She comes to me, she takes her clothes off without being asked, she offers me sex in whatever way I want it. Why? Because I demonstrated concern for her well-being in refusing her, and mastery of my animal instincts. She now knows I am a leader, not a slave to my sex drive, and that I am more concerned with her well being than just getting my dick wet. So she trusts me, and I now have free access to her sexually whenever I want it.

I am not just out for me, and my own pleasure. I am out to help her, and my sexual desires take a back seat to that because I know that having sex with her would only hurt her. Even though she expects to be treated like that by men, and would continue to welcome it if I used her for my selfish sexual interests.

I am controlling my animal body, and I have MORE sexual access because of it.

You say that love makes one's heart finite, but you just said that you were polyamorous, which is the very thing you now claim love is not.

Perhaps to you. To me, it's like this:

I like who I want to like, and **** (hopefully) who I want to ****, and ignore who I want to ignore.

If that makes me [insert descriptive term here] then so be it. I only use these terms to try and translate what I'm saying, but perhaps I chose poorly.

Like and love are very different, as are love and fucking.

What love is, depends on what you make it. In the beginning of every relationship there is a period of time during which a couple makes and sets rules that will govern their relationship. The vast majority of the time, these rules are set by both parties to "default", which is to say, they just go with what society, religion, family, and expectations from others tell them to go with, and never even consider that they have the option of setting rules any other way.

And yet I have had multiple girlfriends at the same time, more than once, who all knew about one another and knew I was having romantic/sexual relations with all of them, specifically because I stated up front, during that rule-making period, that I was going to do exactly that, and if they wanted to be with me as more than a friend, they would have to choose to deal with that fact. In the beginning I did this because I was simply tired of being unhappy with having one woman who was what I wanted or needed in some areas, but not in others, who obstructed me from being happy in the rest of those areas. The idea that "there is someONE for everyone" didn't seem to work, so I changed the rules and let the chips fall where they may. And when I did this, openly, honestly, and stood my ground, a magical thing happened: I ended up with every woman who expressed interest going from "I could never do that." to "I want to be your girlfriend regardless." Usually in about 24-48 hours.

I'd love to know how to do this. I admit I'm not blunt because I rarely think it'll work so yes, manipulation is a game I play. It never works, I'm getting tired of it, but I haven't figured out how to be honest without being "too honest", if you know what I mean.

In my experience, honesty antagonizes people and drives them away.

I told you how to do it. It's very simple. Decide what you want, then be up front about that, and let the chips fall where they may. Refuse to allow her to control your choices, and be ready to have some women disagree.

It's hard to think being honest could possibly work when you're coming from a position of weakness, or perceived weakness, and you haven't been honest and just owned your desires and choices and allowed the chips to fall where they may. There's no such thing as "too honest". You just need to find the women who want the balance of what you want. That is, if you want a harem, you need a woman who wants to be part of one.

Honesty usually only antagonizes if you are lacking in tact, or you are dealing with the wrong people. Those it drives away are those you don't want to be dealing with regardless, if you're being honest with tact.

The difference between what you have been proposing, and what I am proposing is that I am being brutally, blatantly honest and I genuinely don't care if they do or don't want to be with me as more than friends. I let them decide, based on the whole truth, and I make sure they know well in advance exactly what they're agreeing to by being with me. If you do this, and you present yourself as a high enough value target, they will surprise you.

I'm interested as to why you were able to deduce I am not honest. I mean, I'm not (honestly ), well sometimes anyways- but what did I write that made you think so?

Deduction was unnecessary. You flat out told me so. What you described doing, being willing to do, and what you plan to do, all require deception, and therefore point to someone who is not being honest.

Now that's not to say that I always want multiple simultaneous girlfriends, but if I do, it's just a matter of being honest and up front about my needs, or wants or desires, and then letting the chips fall where they may.

They go for it because they recognize that a man who can do that has a lot going for him. Women value boldness and honesty in a man far more than you might realize, specifically because they deal so commonly with people who are weak and trying to lie their way into whatever they want. A woman will often take me up on a relationship even if she doesn't like knowing I have other girlfriends specifically because she knows that if I have the balls to be honest about that, I'm going to have no reason to be dishonest about anything at all. She knows where she stands with me, and she never has to worry about being cheated on or lied to, because by my rules, it's impossible to cheat on her (cheating means breaking the rules) since the rules I set specifically allow me to have as many girlfriends as I want. And at that point, what have I got to gain versus lose by lying? I have nothing to gain, and every man's dream to lose. So on top of being honest because I have honor as a man, I am honest because it would be idiotically and unbearably stupid for me to lie.

Like I said, I'd love to know how to do this. Reading recommendations perhaps?

Again... choose what you want. Choose to own your desires. Be honest about it. Own the truth and the reality of your choice, and refuse to back down. Let the chips fall where they may. I didn't learn this from a book. I learned it from being sick of playing the lying game with women. There's no way to win that game. The only way out is honesty.

On the other hand, a guy who is willing to have sex with a married woman is displaying low self esteem, low self respect, low value, and no consideration for those around him. He is acting selfishly without thought, as an animal expressing it's genetic instructions, and so is the female he is mating with. Neither respects each other or their relationships or partners, and it always ends badly.

I disagree here. What if the girl never knew there was another way? You said it yourself that most people just go to the default ways society has set up for relationships. Why is marriage any different? Surely it's better for people to be free and go through the pain of change than be miserable in something that's quite unnatural, is it not?

Just because marriage is unnatural to a human's genetic instruction set does not mean that the mind, emotions, upbringing or beliefs cannot override those instructions and make monogamy or marriage a genuinely desirable thing for that person or couple. Not everyone would be miserable in a state of marriage, nor would everyone be miserable with every option for whom to marry. You're looking for excuses to justify your desires to disregard marriage as a valid obstacle to sexual access with a given woman.

Not every married woman is going to be in the same situation. She might be married but separated, in the process of a divorce, unable to get a divorce with a man she no longer loves or wants to be around. In such cases it's a judgement call. But in the case that a woman is trying to be faithful, it is not always hard to seduce her into being otherwise. I have had a number of married women who would otherwise never consider having sex with anyone but their husbands, offer me sex in a moment of weakness when they were at the right point in their cycle, or depressed, or highly aroused, or whatever. You cannot just assume that such women, and their families, will be okay if you have sex with them. You can and will do them real damage, and you can destroy someone's life and damage their psyche that way. In the end, you always pay for what harm you do. Somehow, some way.

Like your subs man. You always say we gotta go through the rough patches to get to where we want to go, and I agree with you. In fact, I agree with most everything you're saying here except when it comes to some kind of morality. I'm quite A-moral, and realize that morality, laws, altruism (read Atlas Shrugged by any chance?) and all that are simply constructs created by men from a primitive time. Times are changing, and it's time we change with em.

Morality is a set of rules that people in a society live by to make that society function. Morality, laws, etc. may be constructs made by man, but they exist for reasons, and often very good reasons. It isn't because they were primitive and we are so awesomely evolved now that we don't need them. Times are indeed changing, but that doesn't mean that I am going to be any less hurt if you have sex with my girlfriend when she's in a moment of weakness, or that if I was married and you had sex with my wife that my kids wouldn't suffer emotional trauma from the fallout. You're not thinking of anyone but yourself, and I guarantee you, that path is going to lead you to pain, suffering and regrets. How old are you right now, by the way?

Long ago, before I created AM, I was at a bookstore one night when I had a woman catch my eye who I just could not ignore. I walked over and we started talking, and it quickly became apparent that she was just as irresistibly attracted. We left together and went out to dinner, where while holding my hands, she hung her head and - clearly not wanting to - confessed to being married, with kids.

[snip]

Let me tell you this. Having a loaded gun shoved in your face is a life changing event. The genuine and imminent threat of death is something you have to really work hard to become comfortable with, and I guarantee you that you aren't. You may not meet with a gun in your face the first time you do it, or the second or the third, but sooner or later it or something worse will happen. And a man killing you in a fit of rage for having adulterous sex with his wife is not exactly a slam dunk case of he goes to jail. He might walk, and then finish the job.

Yeah I totally understand. I've had a few near-death experiences myself, and I do indeed, each time, surrender to the will of the universe. It's an amazing calm. In fact, I believe it to be the state most desirable to live life in, but it's hard to duplicate unless you are facing death in the face.

What could be learned from this, however, is to perhaps do it where even if she tells said guy, you can't be traced? Like a motel or something?

I mean, he showed up at your doorstep. Why did you take her to your house??

In fact you don't understand. The point was that I stayed alive because he recognized that I knew that what I had done was wrong, that it hurt him, and that I was hurting because I had hurt him. He id not kill me because he realized that I understood, and his rage subsided enough for him to control himself and lower his gun. I didn't surrender to the will of the universe. I surrendered to him and his judgement, as my penance for having done him wrong. There was no calm in me for days, I assure you.

What could be learned from this, perhaps, is not to fuck another man's wife. Or, if you don't want to "get it", surely it is possible to let it lead to improving your skills as a liar, cheater, etc.

He showed up at my doorstep not because I brought her to my house - I didn't. He showed up at my doorstep because she knew where I lived, and told him in her fit of guilt.

I have also been shot at with live ammunition, although that was by gang bangers who were breaking into a store I was acting as security for. That is also something you will never forget, and it also takes a lot of practice to learn to handle with less than terror, and again, I can almost guarantee you - you haven't had that kind of experience.

If after having a threat of imminent death presented to you, by gun, knife, bare hands or whatever, you are still doing what triggered it - you are either stupid, or you are too big and/or skilled to be smart.

Again, I agree. You can, however, learn how to avoid such things.

Learning to avoid such things is done by not doing things that lead to others wishing to do you violence. Like fucking their wives.

One of the experiences I speak of in my own life was in my construction job. I once helped a fellow worker unload some floor sheets to a second-story floor. Well, the floor beams weren't nailed down and they toppled and I broke through. When I saw that happen, I knew falling was imminent, and I knew I'd either survive or not. By a miracle that I attributed to God back then (I was religious in those days) but even now, can't describe it any other way than feeling a giant hand grab me and move me into position so that everything that was falling would build around me, I survived. Believe me when I say that had I not landed EXACTLY how I did, I would have died right then and there. 1500lbs of wood fell on top of me, and the floor beneath me broke almost completely through, holding together by a quarter inch or so of wood.

The point I'm making here is I learned to nail the floor down FIRST, and THEN unload things. That situation will never happen again. So too, I believe, in other areas of life.

And likewise, you will learn the hard way that it is wise to follow in my footsteps and leave married women to their husbands.

I am not proud to have done what I did, and I learned the hard way that you don't play with a married woman. I also know that what you do will come back to you. So one day if you play with married women, you can expect that if you ever get married, you will probably have to deal with paybacks. And that, as they say, is a bitch.

Don't think you'll ever get married? Never say never. The right female comes along and you fall deeply enough in love and you'll find that it's all you can do to stop from dragging her down the aisle. Especially if you have kids with her. Marriage is a way of stabilizing and protecting a family.

Learning from the mistakes of others is the highest form of wisdom. Don't make the mistakes I have made. You'll get a lot further in life that way.

I thank you for the insight, and again, like I said, I agree with most you are saying. I just have a slightly different outlook is all. For example: I believe that we are all "high value", just by being human beings. Who knows when someone will take up that perspective? If they take it up in the middle of a job, they might quit and become the next Gandhi, if in the middle of a marriage, they might have an affair. Either way, we all take our path in life eventually.

I believe that you want to see what you want to see in order to get what you want however it is easiest. And as with everyone else who has traveled that path, including myself, you will find that the further you tread from the wise way, the more pain you experience. For some of us it takes longer and more pain than for others. I wish you swift discovery. And I am sure I speak for a lot of men when I say, best to hope you never succeed in tagging one of my chosen females.

[About]

That is a huge conversation holy cow.

Sarge, how much of these subliminals have you been using? I have actually been through a total of 2 AM runs, starting with 2011 then it goes to 5.0. In between that I used SM1.0 and during that sub I brought home a woman. I'm flattered that you think i'm in some other territory than you are that I can bring home a woman.

You say you don't talk to women. Don't you talk to them just in general? At a store? Maybe at work? I'm surrounded by women all the time. I'm starting to catch a theme in them. If they aren't interested in talking to you, then you don't need to talk to them. Same thing happens to women, when they don't want to talk to a man, they ignore them. Sometimes we just can't pick up those signs, but I have been catching them more recently.

Basically, the smoother your conversation goes, the better it is. My previous skill level was that similarly to yours. I almost never talked to women in order to attempt to date them. I have always been very good at just talking to them for no reason, minus pick up attempts. I'm learning that picking up is not what you want to do, rather just talk to them so that they don't sense you want anything from them. Nothing will make a woman think you're a creeper faster than you talking to the thing in between their legs.

So you also say that women try to get into relationships by just going on with their lives and hoping to sort of fall into one. That is my understanding of what you said unless I'm mistaken, but I agree with this sentiment. This is the best way, because before you know it, you won't even have to think about approaching a woman, she will actually come up and talk to you because you are too busy trying to do your thing to notice her. That kind of stuff drives them crazy!

These are just a few observations I've noticed. I mean, these specific things happen to me, and I'm thinking to myself "this must be the reason why!!!"

So yeah, which programs have you done so far? Because, for me after SM1.0, I started forgetting about what the subs have been doing to me. That surprises me the most because once I started AM5.0, then moved onto WM2.0, my life has been going into insanity (in a good way). Basically what I want to say is, one of the best ways to use these subliminals are to put them on play, forget about what they did and go on about your day. I find that since WM2.0 started, I've been WAY more social, just like Shannon had claimed would happen to me. I didn't know how much, nor did I really think about it or stress out. It just kind of happened and it was an extremely nice surprise.

And to add on one more thought, I still do not talk to women to date them. Except when I exchange numbers with them. Once I have their number, I know they either enjoy my company or will ignore my phone calls/messages in which case I forget about them faster than a jet plane.

[TheGraduate]

Basically what I want to say is, one of the best ways to use these subliminals are to put them on play, forget about what they did and go on about your day. I find that since WM2.0 started, I've been WAY more social, just like Shannon had claimed would happen to me. I didn't know how much, nor did I really think about it or stress out. It just kind of happened and it was an extremely nice surprise.

About,

Do you use ultrasonic while you sleep? What kind of speakers do you use? I have Audio Engine 2s. I am guessing they can handle 20000 Hz. They seem to be pretty good quality.

[SargeMaximus]

You seem to be implying that you have a commitment to mankind, but the genes are mindless and selfish. Your stated commitment in all this is to yourself, and nobody else.

Marriage is useful for certain things, and not useful for others. Levels of consciousness have nothing to do with it. It is a choice you either make, or don't make. You are assuming that I tie the two together, and simultaneously seem to be making excuses to allow yourself to ignore that two married people have made a vow to one another, and that inevitably, someone (and probably several someones) will get hurt by your actions if you ignore that fact. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

As I said, I'm not planning on raping anyone, so if I have sex with a married women, she has ignored her vows as much as I have. In my opinion, this proves that the marriage was a farce anyhow, and a lie for both involved.

The human body is animal in nature. The human is not just a body, however. It also consists of the mind, and the emotions, among other things that are non-physical.

All humans are or are not emotional creatures of instinct to a roughly equal degree, not just male or female humans. In the past, I was most definitely driven completely by my emotions, and later my reproductive drive. Now I am driven by a balance of my mind, emotions, and instincts, along with the understanding I have of the world around me and how it and the things in it work. There are times when I am more or less driven by my need for sex, but I am not controlled by my sex drive anymore. I decide when, with whom, how often, where, how, etc.

The body alone is the animal expression of the human creature. The rest is what makes us human, and not just animals. You can choose to focus through your mind/emotions and ignore your body, or through your body and ignore your mind/emotions, or through a balance of these.

The current human reproductive method does require animalistic action, and that's not a problem. The problem comes when you allow that animalistic action to become you, take you over, control you - instead of controlling and directing it.

I agree with you there.

You seem here to have exchanged logic for sarcasm. High value always has options to mate and reproduce because they can have anyone they want. If high value chooses to mate with mow value, then they do. If they choose to mate with high value, then they do. I'm not the best at "gaming" women, but I get what I want. It may take me a little longer than other guys sometimes, but I do it. And it's getting easier and easier as time goes on, because my value is increasing steadily.

Right, so what's the problem again? You said it yourself, choose to mate with who you want. I will, sir, I will. I just won't let a ring stop me if my desire happens to land on one.

You might even actually BE high value and have a hard time getting laid, if you're doing something wrong and don't yet understand what that thing is.

I believe you've hit the nail on the head with that. That's exactly what's happening. I simply don't understand a few things, but with the help of my coach and your subliminals, I'm getting there.

Sometimes, you just gotta get *****. I understand. Really I do.

Lol, indeed.

People judge me as being unimportant all the time because of my body type. But I'd say my brain more than makes up for that, and using my brain, I have found ways to access all the eggs I could ever want access to. I choose not to access the eggs of all the females I have available to me in that way for various reasons, but that's not to say I could not if I chose to.

This is good. You've certainly done well for yourself.

I don't have to be choosy, but I sure as hell don't want 3,000 kids to feed. I don't have to be choosy, but I sure as hell don't want to have kids before I become a millionaire and possibly lose my shot because I can't focus on making money as effectively anymore. I don't have to be choosy, but I don't want my kids to have diseases, deformities, disorders, addictions or just plain be ugly when they're born. But I think you're misunderstanding my point here. When I say disinterest signals higher value, I mean it signals that to her - faking it only worked until women were aware of the fakery. It's not a pick-up routine to be genuinely disinterested and have women genuinely be attracted as a result. I can attest to that first hand.

Well, lol. Again, use condoms, the pill, and here in Canada, you can draft up a contract between two sexual partners that states if you are using contraception but a child is born anyways, you have no obligation to provide for it because you were doing everything in your power to keep the sex safe. I understand the children "problem", really. I've had this myself until I found out about this contract. I was gonna be damned if I ever got a girl pregnant so maybe I was even scared of ever having sex for that small chance that my life could get fucked.

Humans among all the animals have the potential to be whatever they choose to be. That means you can choose to e nothing more than a gene slave sperm donor animal... or you can rise to your full potential as an intelligent, wise, understanding creature which happens to be focused through an animal body in order to experience the limitations of the physical world.

The sex drive is genetic, and emotional, and in both cases primarily ruled by the subconscious, which never rests. So you must control it while you are conscious, or it will control you. A man who is slave to his sex drive is not a man, but a slave and an animal, seeking to express his genes any way possible. He is not a leader, because he is a slave. That is low value, and that is why desperation chases away the women.

I agree with you 100%. Perhaps you mistake my drive to get good at dealing with women for desperation to have sex with any woman I find, which is not the case.

Genuine self control is as powerful an attractant to women as genuine self confidence. As a case in point, I know a woman who is interested in me who I have had sexual access to three times. Three times now, out of the five times I have been in her presence, I reasonably could have had sex with her. And yet, even after she took her clothes off and laid down on my bed and even spread her legs for me - two different times - I did not respond by having sex with her.

Did I want to? Yes. But I controlled myself, because I used my brain and I knew that it would cause problems. And what is the result of my self control? She wants me even more every time I refuse her. Whereas it was possible with great effort on my part the first time, I now have her doing everything but forcing me. She comes to me, she takes her clothes off without being asked, she offers me sex in whatever way I want it. Why? Because I demonstrated concern for her well-being in refusing her, and mastery of my animal instincts. She now knows I am a leader, not a slave to my sex drive, and that I am more concerned with her well being than just getting my dick wet. So she trusts me, and I now have free access to her sexually whenever I want it.

This is an important story to remember to be sure. However, my mind cannot yet distinguish between no sex from a woman who desires you and no sex from a woman who does not. To me, it's all the same. I'd rather skip her and go for a woman that I find attractive, who is both available sexually (be she married or not), and can keep her shit together.

I think having sex with a woman like the one you mentioned who told her lunatic husband (who then pointed a gun in your face) about your affair is a bad idea, even if she were single. Such a woman is trouble regardless, and I have no problem staying away from those kinds of women.

I am not just out for me, and my own pleasure. I am out to help her, and my sexual desires take a back seat to that because I know that having sex with her would only hurt her. Even though she expects to be treated like that by men, and would continue to welcome it if I used her for my selfish sexual interests.

I am controlling my animal body, and I have MORE sexual access because of it.

Again, to me, you don't. What you have is a woman who wants to have sex with you, but you have put a barrier on her because you've deemed it unwise. Which is understandable. My thing is, why not just count her as a "no fly zone" instead of saying you have sexual access to her?

I mean, if it was me, any woman I decide isn't worth the risk of sleeping with is a woman I'm not interested in and is a woman I "can't" have sex with. There is no access there because I don't want it there anyways. Does this make sense?

I mean yeah, by all means, you gotta be smart. I'm not saying you shouldn't be. And I think you may be responding to what you think is me instead of who I am. Doesn't really matter though, it's just a shame.

Like and love are very different, as are love and *****.

Well, that's certainly one opinion.

Honesty usually only antagonizes if you are lacking in tact, or you are dealing with the wrong people. Those it drives away are those you don't want to be dealing with regardless, if you're being honest with tact.

That's it exactly. No tact. What is tact and how do I learn it? I'm a blunt instrument. I've known this all my life. I used to love it, you know, being brutally honest and having people become repelled. I used to like it, because no one else stood up for themselves or "owned" what they believed in. But it has gotten to be too much. I don't want to change what I believe in just to please someone, but I find myself heading in that direction, so I gotta find the middle ground.

Deduction was unnecessary. You flat out told me so. What you described doing, being willing to do, and what you plan to do, all require deception, and therefore point to someone who is not being honest.

Interesting.

Again... choose what you want. Choose to own your desires. Be honest about it. Own the truth and the reality of your choice, and refuse to back down. Let the chips fall where they may. I didn't learn this from a book. I learned it from being sick of playing the lying game with women. There's no way to win that game. The only way out is honesty.

Honesty with tact though, yes? I gotta learn the tact man, where can I/how can I?

For example, I'm getting so fed up it's like this. Let's say a girl approaches me and I'm feeling sick of games and lies like I am right now. I'd flat out tell her: so... let's go to your place.

And, if she gets annoyed or whatever, I drop her like yesterday's news. Simple, and blunt. But, I assume, no tact.

Just because marriage is unnatural to a human's genetic instruction set does not mean that the mind, emotions, upbringing or beliefs cannot override those instructions and make monogamy or marriage a genuinely desirable thing for that person or couple. Not everyone would be miserable in a state of marriage, nor would everyone be miserable with every option for whom to marry. You're looking for excuses to justify your desires to disregard marriage as a valid obstacle to sexual access with a given woman.

No, what I'm saying is, deep down there's a human woman under that married girl. If that "creature" (if you will) wants to have sex with me, and she expresses her desire, then I have no problem going for it if I desire her as well.

Not every married woman is going to be in the same situation. She might be married but separated, in the process of a divorce, unable to get a divorce with a man she no longer loves or wants to be around. In such cases it's a judgement call. But in the case that a woman is trying to be faithful, it is not always hard to seduce her into being otherwise. I have had a number of married women who would otherwise never consider having sex with anyone but their husbands, offer me sex in a moment of weakness when they were at the right point in their cycle, or depressed, or highly aroused, or whatever. You cannot just assume that such women, and their families, will be okay if you have sex with them. You can and will do them real damage, and you can destroy someone's life and damage their psyche that way. In the end, you always pay for what harm you do. Somehow, some way.

I'll take that under advisement. Like you said, it's a judgement call.

Morality is a set of rules that people in a society live by to make that society function. Morality, laws, etc. may be constructs made by man, but they exist for reasons, and often very good reasons. It isn't because they were primitive and we are so awesomely evolved now that we don't need them. Times are indeed changing, but that doesn't mean that I am going to be any less hurt if you have sex with my girlfriend when she's in a moment of weakness, or that if I was married and you had sex with my wife that my kids wouldn't suffer emotional trauma from the fallout. You're not thinking of anyone but yourself, and I guarantee you, that path is going to lead you to pain, suffering and regrets. How old are you right now, by the way?

I'll answer that if you answer me this:

Why don't you put the blame at least equally on the woman for betraying you? I myself endeavor to not care because I want open relationships, but it's always puzzled me why the man has never been angry with the woman for cheating as much as he's been mad at the other man for taking advantage of that woman's state.

In fact you don't understand. The point was that I stayed alive because he recognized that I knew that what I had done was wrong, that it hurt him, and that I was hurting because I had hurt him. He id not kill me because he realized that I understood, and his rage subsided enough for him to control himself and lower his gun. I didn't surrender to the will of the universe. I surrendered to him and his judgement, as my penance for having done him wrong. There was no calm in me for days, I assure you.

What could be learned from this, perhaps, is not to **** another man's wife. Or, if you don't want to "get it", surely it is possible to let it lead to improving your skills as a liar, cheater, etc.

He showed up at my doorstep not because I brought her to my house - I didn't. He showed up at my doorstep because she knew where I lived, and told him in her fit of guilt.

I don't want to be a liar and cheater. Just like I don't want to work to make money to eat food. I could be a "good boy" and stay away from married women, just like I could live in the forest and eat game.

But, there are certain things we have to sacrifice to get what we want, as you've said yourself.

The ultimate ideal (for me) is that everyone on earth is in one, big, open relationship. Maybe I'm an idealist in that regard, but I'd like to live in that world. Maybe you could design a sub that transfers us to alternate realities?

I don't want to hurt anyone either, I really don't. But sometimes we hurt people around us just because of what we believe.

I imagine gay kids in a religious family hurt their parents when they come out of the closet. But they gotta do it man, they can't just ignore and repress who they are. Or do you have another solution?

Learning to avoid such things is done by not doing things that lead to others wishing to do you violence. Like ***** their wives.

That's one way, yes.

And likewise, you will learn the hard way that it is wise to follow in my footsteps and leave married women to their husbands.

Or I could, like you said, learn from you now. I'd hate to go through unnecessary suffering.

I believe that you want to see what you want to see in order to get what you want however it is easiest. And as with everyone else who has traveled that path, including myself, you will find that the further you tread from the wise way, the more pain you experience. For some of us it takes longer and more pain than for others. I wish you swift discovery. And I am sure I speak for a lot of men when I say, best to hope you never succeed in tagging one of my chosen females.

As do we all, it's human nature.
Just hope they never cheat on you is my perspective. I'm under no illusions that women are promiscuous and don't intend to rule any of my girls with a leash. They can do what they want. Everyone can.

[SargeMaximus]

That is a huge conversation holy cow.

Tell me about it About. lol.

Sarge, how much of these subliminals have you been using? I have actually been through a total of 2 AM runs, starting with 2011 then it goes to 5.0. In between that I used SM1.0 and during that sub I brought home a woman. I'm flattered that you think i'm in some other territory than you are that I can bring home a woman.

Well you are my friend, I've never brought home a woman in my life.

I have so far been through a full set of OGSF (3 months, or 92 days, whichever the ascribed amount was for it), and am now on Stage 4 of AM 5.0.

You say you don't talk to women. Don't you talk to them just in general? At a store? Maybe at work? I'm surrounded by women all the time. I'm starting to catch a theme in them. If they aren't interested in talking to you, then you don't need to talk to them. Same thing happens to women, when they don't want to talk to a man, they ignore them. Sometimes we just can't pick up those signs, but I have been catching them more recently.

No, not really. I mean, I say hi to girls that I see at desks at my gym or at the counter at the grocery store (I got a girl to help me find the chips the other day and she didn't even work there, though I told her she should have) you know, day to day stuff. But conversations, meh. Not really interested. It's hard for me to pretend I'm interested when I'm not. I can do it, and I always get great results, but I just get exhausted and soon lose my enthusiasm, and girls rarely have anything interesting to say in my limited experience.

Basically, the smoother your conversation goes, the better it is. My previous skill level was that similarly to yours. I almost never talked to women in order to attempt to date them. I have always been very good at just talking to them for no reason, minus pick up attempts. I'm learning that picking up is not what you want to do, rather just talk to them so that they don't sense you want anything from them. Nothing will make a woman think you're a creeper faster than you talking to the thing in between their legs.

I know. It's a weird thing, but basically I've understood that sex will happen between two people if the conditions are right, so the focus is on building the conditions (connection, rapport, privacy, etc) rather than on fucking her.

I'm also flattered that I'm where you were, that means there's hope! lol.

So you also say that women try to get into relationships by just going on with their lives and hoping to sort of fall into one. That is my understanding of what you said unless I'm mistaken, but I agree with this sentiment. This is the best way, because before you know it, you won't even have to think about approaching a woman, she will actually come up and talk to you because you are too busy trying to do your thing to notice her. That kind of stuff drives them crazy!

Yes, and what you do then is draft her into what you're doing. Be playful a little bit after the initial draft, and after your done doing the thing you were doing, follow up with her by getting (or giving, can't decide which I want to do) the number. Or, best case scenario: exchanging information. Never try to get, that's a big "no no".

These are just a few observations I've noticed. I mean, these specific things happen to me, and I'm thinking to myself "this must be the reason why!!!"

Exactly, I've had the same situations come up and yes, draft the woman into what you're doing. Look her over, decide if she's worthy of joining you, then draft her. She'll either go along or not. Either way, it's always about your purpose in life, and she'll sense that.

So yeah, which programs have you done so far? Because, for me after SM1.0, I started forgetting about what the subs have been doing to me. That surprises me the most because once I started AM5.0, then moved onto WM2.0, my life has been going into insanity (in a good way). Basically what I want to say is, one of the best ways to use these subliminals are to put them on play, forget about what they did and go on about your day. I find that since WM2.0 started, I've been WAY more social, just like Shannon had claimed would happen to me. I didn't know how much, nor did I really think about it or stress out. It just kind of happened and it was an extremely nice surprise.

Yeah like I said, only 1 and a half so far. I think you're right too, best to forget about them. I try not to monitor the progress of these subs and just live my life, but I also want to journal so I can see the change, and provide it for others to see. It's a delicate balance, and I don't exactly know where the middle ground is.

And to add on one more thought, I still do not talk to women to date them. Except when I exchange numbers with them. Once I have their number, I know they either enjoy my company or will ignore my phone calls/messages in which case I forget about them faster than a jet plane.

Lol, cool. I look forward to having such a mindset. Good luck with WM, sounds like it's treating you well.

[About]

Basically what I want to say is, one of the best ways to use these subliminals are to put them on play, forget about what they did and go on about your day. I find that since WM2.0 started, I've been WAY more social, just like Shannon had claimed would happen to me. I didn't know how much, nor did I really think about it or stress out. It just kind of happened and it was an extremely nice surprise.

About,

Do you use ultrasonic while you sleep? What kind of speakers do you use? I have Audio Engine 2s. I am guessing they can handle 20000 Hz. They seem to be pretty good quality.

These ones, I have had them for a long time now but they still work beautifully. Yes I use ultrasonic and I may end up using them much too loudly. What I like about my speakers is that they have a nice full sound, so I can actually listen to loud music without any real damage to my ears although I could be wrong here, I have heard that the higher quality speakers, the louder you can listen to them without damaging your ears

http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-THX-Certi...B0002WPSBC

[About]

That is a huge conversation holy cow.

Tell me about it About. lol.

Sarge, how much of these subliminals have you been using? I have actually been through a total of 2 AM runs, starting with 2011 then it goes to 5.0. In between that I used SM1.0 and during that sub I brought home a woman. I'm flattered that you think i'm in some other territory than you are that I can bring home a woman.

Well you are my friend, I've never brought home a woman in my life.

I have so far been through a full set of OGSF (3 months, or 92 days, whichever the ascribed amount was for it), and am now on Stage 4 of AM 5.0.

You say you don't talk to women. Don't you talk to them just in general? At a store? Maybe at work? I'm surrounded by women all the time. I'm starting to catch a theme in them. If they aren't interested in talking to you, then you don't need to talk to them. Same thing happens to women, when they don't want to talk to a man, they ignore them. Sometimes we just can't pick up those signs, but I have been catching them more recently.

No, not really. I mean, I say hi to girls that I see at desks at my gym or at the counter at the grocery store (I got a girl to help me find the chips the other day and she didn't even work there, though I told her she should have) you know, day to day stuff. But conversations, meh. Not really interested. It's hard for me to pretend I'm interested when I'm not. I can do it, and I always get great results, but I just get exhausted and soon lose my enthusiasm, and girls rarely have anything interesting to say in my limited experience.

Basically, the smoother your conversation goes, the better it is. My previous skill level was that similarly to yours. I almost never talked to women in order to attempt to date them. I have always been very good at just talking to them for no reason, minus pick up attempts. I'm learning that picking up is not what you want to do, rather just talk to them so that they don't sense you want anything from them. Nothing will make a woman think you're a creeper faster than you talking to the thing in between their legs.

I know. It's a weird thing, but basically I've understood that sex will happen between two people if the conditions are right, so the focus is on building the conditions (connection, rapport, privacy, etc) rather than on ***** her.

I'm also flattered that I'm where you were, that means there's hope! lol.

So you also say that women try to get into relationships by just going on with their lives and hoping to sort of fall into one. That is my understanding of what you said unless I'm mistaken, but I agree with this sentiment. This is the best way, because before you know it, you won't even have to think about approaching a woman, she will actually come up and talk to you because you are too busy trying to do your thing to notice her. That kind of stuff drives them crazy!

Yes, and what you do then is draft her into what you're doing. Be playful a little bit after the initial draft, and after your done doing the thing you were doing, follow up with her by getting (or giving, can't decide which I want to do) the number. Or, best case scenario: exchanging information. Never try to get, that's a big "no no".

These are just a few observations I've noticed. I mean, these specific things happen to me, and I'm thinking to myself "this must be the reason why!!!"

Exactly, I've had the same situations come up and yes, draft the woman into what you're doing. Look her over, decide if she's worthy of joining you, then draft her. She'll either go along or not. Either way, it's always about your purpose in life, and she'll sense that.

So yeah, which programs have you done so far? Because, for me after SM1.0, I started forgetting about what the subs have been doing to me. That surprises me the most because once I started AM5.0, then moved onto WM2.0, my life has been going into insanity (in a good way). Basically what I want to say is, one of the best ways to use these subliminals are to put them on play, forget about what they did and go on about your day. I find that since WM2.0 started, I've been WAY more social, just like Shannon had claimed would happen to me. I didn't know how much, nor did I really think about it or stress out. It just kind of happened and it was an extremely nice surprise.

Yeah like I said, only 1 and a half so far. I think you're right too, best to forget about them. I try not to monitor the progress of these subs and just live my life, but I also want to journal so I can see the change, and provide it for others to see. It's a delicate balance, and I don't exactly know where the middle ground is.

And to add on one more thought, I still do not talk to women to date them. Except when I exchange numbers with them. Once I have their number, I know they either enjoy my company or will ignore my phone calls/messages in which case I forget about them faster than a jet plane.

Lol, cool. I look forward to having such a mindset. Good luck with WM, sounds like it's treating you well.

You seem to have the correct mindset.

No, not really. I mean, I say hi to girls that I see at desks at my gym or at the counter at the grocery store (I got a girl to help me find the chips the other day and she didn't even work there, though I told her she should have) you know, day to day stuff. But conversations, meh. Not really interested. It's hard for me to pretend I'm interested when I'm not. I can do it, and I always get great results, but I just get exhausted and soon lose my enthusiasm, and girls rarely have anything interesting to say in my limited experience.

This is perfect. Just have those conversations. I've done those to everyone. Pretty, hot, attractive, and believe me the unattractive as well. They think of you as a person who is just willing to have a conversation to them, and when each and every single girl, say at work or at your gym find that you are talking to them without any intent to hook up with them, that will send them mad and make them wonder why hasn't he asked me for my number!

This is the kind of mindset that I believe men in a relationship live by. When I was in college, my mindset was I must get laid. Once I had a girlfriend in college, by no skill of my own rather by luck, I adopted this mindset because I had a lady. After all my runs with these subliminals, I have actually adopted this mindset almost all the time rather than just when I'm in a relationship. It's kind of like saying "I'm really full right now, I can't have another bite" but applying it to women even if you don't have a girl in your life. You know that out of all the women that you talk to, you could easily escalate it to something more but you choose not to.

I have this belief that my former female coworkers (I have since left that job) all are attracted to me in some way and may not necessarily want anything from me other than my attention. I got this way by speaking to each and every one of them in the way I mentioned above. It doesn't matter who I'm talking to, it all comes back to me in a good way. I get some hate too, but hate is part of the game. I ignore those that give it to me because that type of negative attitude is nothing I want in my life.

I am the type of guy who never approached women ever, but ended up reading pick up material since I was 16. I'm 24 now, and have since stopped for nearly 2-3 years, around the time I started shannon's subliminals. They helped me realize that it has nothing to do with what you read, but just getting out there and having fun. Despite all the material I've read, I come across multiple contradicting information and my best drawn conclusion from reading material for that many years is to forget all that and just do what works for you. I have been told I'm a very cute guy. As emasculating as it is, since cute cannot be sexy and sexy is masculine/feminine (cute is cute), I still use it to my advantage. I might have moments of being masculine but really all I have to do is just be myself.

[SargeMaximus]

You seem to have the correct mindset.

Awesome!

This is perfect. Just have those conversations. I've done those to everyone. Pretty, hot, attractive, and believe me the unattractive as well. They think of you as a person who is just willing to have a conversation to them, and when each and every single girl, say at work or at your gym find that you are talking to them without any intent to hook up with them, that will send them mad and make them wonder why hasn't he asked me for my number!

Well, I CAN do that, but it's hard to know what to do with it because, like, I do that but then it's like "ok, but I'm in 'don't get the number mode'" and I don't know how to exchange information without trying for it. It's hard to describe, I don't quite understand it myself. But I know this, when I can be fully immersed in what I'm doing, even if a girl is following me around the store and giving me all kinds of smiles and signs, I don't do anything because I'm "in the zone". I'd love to know how to be in the zone while being open to women and other people, because when I'm in that zone, I'm not.

This is the kind of mindset that I believe men in a relationship live by. When I was in college, my mindset was I must get laid. Once I had a girlfriend in college, by no skill of my own rather by luck, I adopted this mindset because I had a lady. After all my runs with these subliminals, I have actually adopted this mindset almost all the time rather than just when I'm in a relationship. It's kind of like saying "I'm really full right now, I can't have another bite" but applying it to women even if you don't have a girl in your life. You know that out of all the women that you talk to, you could easily escalate it to something more but you choose not to.

Which sub would you say helped the most to give you that mindset?

I have this belief that my former female coworkers (I have since left that job) all are attracted to me in some way and may not necessarily want anything from me other than my attention. I got this way by speaking to each and every one of them in the way I mentioned above. It doesn't matter who I'm talking to, it all comes back to me in a good way. I get some hate too, but hate is part of the game. I ignore those that give it to me because that type of negative attitude is nothing I want in my life.

I am the type of guy who never approached women ever, but ended up reading pick up material since I was 16. I'm 24 now, and have since stopped for nearly 2-3 years, around the time I started shannon's subliminals. They helped me realize that it has nothing to do with what you read, but just getting out there and having fun. Despite all the material I've read, I come across multiple contradicting information and my best drawn conclusion from reading material for that many years is to forget all that and just do what works for you. I have been told I'm a very cute guy. As emasculating as it is, since cute cannot be sexy and sexy is masculine/feminine (cute is cute), I still use it to my advantage. I might have moments of being masculine but really all I have to do is just be myself.

Well, I've heard that when a girl tells you your cute, it's code for "I wanna suck you". But anyhow, I know what you mean. It's just... being myself is getting lonely in the way that I seem to push people away when I don't give a fuck. And I refuse to think I'm doomed to be an isolated person. So, I'll just keep going till things start to happen/make sense.

Thanks for the insight.

[Shannon]

First, my apologies to About for hikjacking your journal. I didn't realize this was someone else's journal to whom I was responding at the time I started.

Second, primarily, I got my point across in a way you understand, Sarge, and that was the goal. There's a few points I'll respond to.

People judge me as being unimportant all the time because of my body type. But I'd say my brain more than makes up for that, and using my brain, I have found ways to access all the eggs I could ever want access to. I choose not to access the eggs of all the females I have available to me in that way for various reasons, but that's not to say I could not if I chose to.

This is good. You've certainly done well for yourself.

The point is, have done well for myself by being honest and owning my choices and reality.

Humans among all the animals have the potential to be whatever they choose to be. That means you can choose to e nothing more than a gene slave sperm donor animal... or you can rise to your full potential as an intelligent, wise, understanding creature which happens to be focused through an animal body in order to experience the limitations of the physical world.

The sex drive is genetic, and emotional, and in both cases primarily ruled by the subconscious, which never rests. So you must control it while you are conscious, or it will control you. A man who is slave to his sex drive is not a man, but a slave and an animal, seeking to express his genes any way possible. He is not a leader, because he is a slave. That is low value, and that is why desperation chases away the women.

I agree with you 100%. Perhaps you mistake my drive to get good at dealing with women for desperation to have sex with any woman I find, which is not the case.

I think I was making that mistake.

Genuine self control is as powerful an attractant to women as genuine self confidence. As a case in point, I know a woman who is interested in me who I have had sexual access to three times. Three times now, out of the five times I have been in her presence, I reasonably could have had sex with her. And yet, even after she took her clothes off and laid down on my bed and even spread her legs for me - two different times - I did not respond by having sex with her.

Did I want to? Yes. But I controlled myself, because I used my brain and I knew that it would cause problems. And what is the result of my self control? She wants me even more every time I refuse her. Whereas it was possible with great effort on my part the first time, I now have her doing everything but forcing me. She comes to me, she takes her clothes off without being asked, she offers me sex in whatever way I want it. Why? Because I demonstrated concern for her well-being in refusing her, and mastery of my animal instincts. She now knows I am a leader, not a slave to my sex drive, and that I am more concerned with her well being than just getting my dick wet. So she trusts me, and I now have free access to her sexually whenever I want it.

This is an important story to remember to be sure. However, my mind cannot yet distinguish between no sex from a woman who desires you and no sex from a woman who does not. To me, it's all the same. I'd rather skip her and go for a woman that I find attractive, who is both available sexually (be she married or not), and can keep her shit together.

The difference is that I chose who did or did not have sex with me, and when and where. Not her, and not my gonads. Big difference in the long run.

I think having sex with a woman like the one you mentioned who told her lunatic husband (who then pointed a gun in your face) about your affair is a bad idea, even if she were single. Such a woman is trouble regardless, and I have no problem staying away from those kinds of women.

Had I known she was going to do that, or had that propensity, the likelihood of me having sex with her would have dropped off to zero. I was horny, but I wasn't looking to get killed.

I am not just out for me, and my own pleasure. I am out to help her, and my sexual desires take a back seat to that because I know that having sex with her would only hurt her. Even though she expects to be treated like that by men, and would continue to welcome it if I used her for my selfish sexual interests.

I am controlling my animal body, and I have MORE sexual access because of it.

Again, to me, you don't. What you have is a woman who wants to have sex with you, but you have put a barrier on her because you've deemed it unwise. Which is understandable. My thing is, why not just count her as a "no fly zone" instead of saying you have sexual access to her?

Oh, but I do. You have completely discounted that I can have sex with her whenever I want now. The future does not equal the past. As long as we are both in a situation where we are open to having sex, it can happen. I may not take it, but my access is there whenever I want it, probably for years into the future.

I mean, if it was me, any woman I decide isn't worth the risk of sleeping with is a woman I'm not interested in and is a woman I "can't" have sex with. There is no access there because I don't want it there anyways. Does this make sense?

Burning bridges isn't very effective. Just because she's unsuitable NOW, or unavailable NOW, doesn't mean she will be in an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year...

Like and love are very different, as are love and *****.

Well, that's certainly one opinion.

Go look up the definition of opinion. Then tell me that a disctionary has value because it is opinion. Then go look up the definitions of the words love, like, and fuck.

Honesty usually only antagonizes if you are lacking in tact, or you are dealing with the wrong people. Those it drives away are those you don't want to be dealing with regardless, if you're being honest with tact.

That's it exactly. No tact. What is tact and how do I learn it? I'm a blunt instrument. I've known this all my life. I used to love it, you know, being brutally honest and having people become repelled. I used to like it, because no one else stood up for themselves or "owned" what they believed in. But it has gotten to be too much. I don't want to change what I believe in just to please someone, but I find myself heading in that direction, so I gotta find the middle ground.

So you need to learn how to think like someone else then. Put yourself in her shoes, and think in terms of what she is experiencing. Then adjust your approach to match what she would be comfortable with, respond well to, and so forth. It's important to understand female psychology for your society, her body language, be able to read vocal cues, facial cues, and interpret her actions. You have to learn to understand what her personality is and how to interact with it.

One thing I can share is that I have noted a significant correlation between certain body types and their ability to handle "no tact". The ones who handle it best in females are the tall athletic ones. Then comes the tiny petite ones. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Again... choose what you want. Choose to own your desires. Be honest about it. Own the truth and the reality of your choice, and refuse to back down. Let the chips fall where they may. I didn't learn this from a book. I learned it from being sick of playing the lying game with women. There's no way to win that game. The only way out is honesty.

Honesty with tact though, yes? I gotta learn the tact man, where can I/how can I?

As I said above, tact is the art of understanding how to adjust what you say and do to be comfortably received by the person you are dealing with. To do that, you have to understand the person you are dealing with. Barring that, the general rules of tact are commonly called "good manners".

For example, I'm getting so fed up it's like this. Let's say a girl approaches me and I'm feeling sick of games and lies like I am right now. I'd flat out tell her: so... let's go to your place.

And, if she gets annoyed or whatever, I drop her like yesterday's news. Simple, and blunt. But, I assume, no tact.

You also have to deliver the punch line at the right time. Too fast, too slow, too early or too late and it's game over. That means you have to understand what she's thinking, and responding with, and how she's thinking, and why.

Your job is to lead her to the place in her own mind, body and emotions in which she is ready, willing and able to do what you want to do. To do that, you have to understand her and work with her.

Just because marriage is unnatural to a human's genetic instruction set does not mean that the mind, emotions, upbringing or beliefs cannot override those instructions and make monogamy or marriage a genuinely desirable thing for that person or couple. Not everyone would be miserable in a state of marriage, nor would everyone be miserable with every option for whom to marry. You're looking for excuses to justify your desires to disregard marriage as a valid obstacle to sexual access with a given woman.

No, what I'm saying is, deep down there's a human woman under that married girl. If that "creature" (if you will) wants to have sex with me, and she expresses her desire, then I have no problem going for it if I desire her as well.

All humans want, at some level, to have sex with every possible mate. My worry is that you're not going to "meet her half way", but actively seduce her into sex and then claim that "she obviously wanted it too", when she may not have been in full conscious or logical control of herself after her sexual arousal was up.

I had a girlfriend or two who was faithful to a fault until she was sufficiently aroused in one specific way, and then it was anything goes. With anyone and everyone. Was fine, until someone pushed the right buttons while trying to seduce her, even knowing she was involved. She got hurt badly in the deal, and I didn't fare much better. But jackass was too selfish and stupid to know, understand or care. You have to consider the consequences of your actions, for you, her, and everyone she is involved with and caring for.

Morality is a set of rules that people in a society live by to make that society function. Morality, laws, etc. may be constructs made by man, but they exist for reasons, and often very good reasons. It isn't because they were primitive and we are so awesomely evolved now that we don't need them. Times are indeed changing, but that doesn't mean that I am going to be any less hurt if you have sex with my girlfriend when she's in a moment of weakness, or that if I was married and you had sex with my wife that my kids wouldn't suffer emotional trauma from the fallout. You're not thinking of anyone but yourself, and I guarantee you, that path is going to lead you to pain, suffering and regrets. How old are you right now, by the way?

I'll answer that if you answer me this:

Why don't you put the blame at least equally on the woman for betraying you? I myself endeavor to not care because I want open relationships, but it's always puzzled me why the man has never been angry with the woman for cheating as much as he's been mad at the other man for taking advantage of that woman's state.

You raise a valid point, and the answer is that I do put the blame equally on the woman. I have always been amazed at how guys act like she's blameless when clearly she either initiated it or at least willingly participated. That's bullshit. Which is why I have a zero tolerance policy for betrayal. I have been burned too many times with that.

Now then... your age? I'm going to guess you're in your early to mid 20's.

In fact you don't understand. The point was that I stayed alive because he recognized that I knew that what I had done was wrong, that it hurt him, and that I was hurting because I had hurt him. He id not kill me because he realized that I understood, and his rage subsided enough for him to control himself and lower his gun. I didn't surrender to the will of the universe. I surrendered to him and his judgement, as my penance for having done him wrong. There was no calm in me for days, I assure you.

What could be learned from this, perhaps, is not to **** another man's wife. Or, if you don't want to "get it", surely it is possible to let it lead to improving your skills as a liar, cheater, etc.

He showed up at my doorstep not because I brought her to my house - I didn't. He showed up at my doorstep because she knew where I lived, and told him in her fit of guilt.

I don't want to be a liar and cheater. Just like I don't want to work to make money to eat food. I could be a "good boy" and stay away from married women, just like I could live in the forest and eat game.

But, there are certain things we have to sacrifice to get what we want, as you've said yourself.

You certainly can sacrifice your life to have an orgasm, or your safety, or your health, any time you want.

The ultimate ideal (for me) is that everyone on earth is in one, big, open relationship. Maybe I'm an idealist in that regard, but I'd like to live in that world. Maybe you could design a sub that transfers us to alternate realities?

Hmmm. Your ideal and everyone else's may be a little bit at odds. Which could maybe cause some friction.

I don't want to hurt anyone either, I really don't. But sometimes we hurt people around us just because of what we believe.

And of course, choosing to ignore their well-being in order to get one's dick wet because they choose to believe and act out whatever it takes to achieve the end goal would certainly fall into that category. But ultimately, your actions are not taken in a vacuum. You impact the world, and the world returns your impact. There is no escaping that fact.

I imagine gay kids in a religious family hurt their parents when they come out of the closet. But they gotta do it man, they can't just ignore and repress who they are. Or do you have another solution?

You are comparing apples to oranges to mislead the argument away from the truth. The truth is, you have the knowledge that your actions have an impact on those around you, and wanting to get laid so badly that you change your mind and actions in order to justify actions that very possibly could hurt yourself, and those around you, will not change the fact that you are responsible for the decision that resulted in that harm. That decision is choosing to prioritize your orgasm over everything else. Justfy all you like, but you are ultimately responsible for your actions, choices and results thereof. If you disregard the well being of another, it has consequences that are not nice.

And likewise, you will learn the hard way that it is wise to follow in my footsteps and leave married women to their husbands.

Or I could, like you said, learn from you now. I'd hate to go through unnecessary suffering.

I didn't write all this because I want you to experience what I did.

I believe that you want to see what you want to see in order to get what you want however it is easiest. And as with everyone else who has traveled that path, including myself, you will find that the further you tread from the wise way, the more pain you experience. For some of us it takes longer and more pain than for others. I wish you swift discovery. And I am sure I speak for a lot of men when I say, best to hope you never succeed in tagging one of my chosen females.

As do we all, it's human nature.
Just hope they never cheat on you is my perspective. I'm under no illusions that women are promiscuous and don't intend to rule any of my girls with a leash. They can do what they want. Everyone can.

If a woman wants to be with me, she acts like it. Otherwise, she is always welcome to leave at any time. I don't try to force anyone to stay with me, and I'd rather she leave than be around if she isn't going to abide by the rules she agreed to when we started the relationship. If that includes her being sexually and romantically faithful to me, then she's not free to both play with others and be with me. So if a woman I claim was to play with you, it would simply be a case of she's not acting like it, so she's not mine anymore. I have no respect for a man who does that, but that was her choice, and my primary beef is with her.

But if you do more than meet her half way... then I have a beef with you specifically, as well as her.

[SargeMaximus]

First, my apologies to About for hikjacking your journal. I didn't realize this was someone else's journal to whom I was responding at the time I started.

Second, primarily, I got my point across in a way you understand, Sarge, and that was the goal. There's a few points I'll respond to.

I do thank you for taking the time to respond, it shows you care, which I respect.

The point is, have done well for myself by being honest and owning my choices and reality.

I think I know what you mean. I've had times where I feel like I do something and then instantly retreat from it.

Today at the gym I thought the girl at the desk was wanting to talk to me so I looked at her, but she was talking to someone else so I immediately retreated back to my original thing I was doing.

I got the feeling that I wasn't owning my desire to talk to her and those kinds of things are popping up more now to be honest. It's like AM is pushing me off a cliff and I'm resisting every step of the way, even though I know it's coming. For some reason, I won't just jump.

It's a lot like the feeling I get when it comes to uncomfortable heights. I'm always torn between the fear of falling and an almost uncontrollable urge to jump off the edge.

Crazy stuff.

I think I was making that mistake.

It's ok, I know I'm overbearing at times. My zeal to succeed can definitely come off as desperation. In fact, sometimes I curb my zeal to make myself seem less desperate which is, perhaps, desperation itself.

The difference is that I chose who did or did not have sex with me, and when and where. Not her, and not my gonads. Big difference in the long run.

For sure.

Had I known she was going to do that, or had that propensity, the likelihood of me having sex with her would have dropped off to zero. I was horny, but I wasn't looking to get killed.

Lol, no doubt.

Oh, but I do. You have completely discounted that I can have sex with her whenever I want now. The future does not equal the past. As long as we are both in a situation where we are open to having sex, it can happen. I may not take it, but my access is there whenever I want it, probably for years into the future.

I never thought of it that way. I'm definitely quick to throw people under the bus just because of a simple misunderstanding or misfire. I even do this to myself which is, I believe, a huge factor in why I'm not as successful as I'd like to be. The more mistakes you make, the faster you learn, and all that. I'm just hung up on being a sniper, what I gotta do is get myself an M60 and just fire away.

Burning bridges isn't very effective. Just because she's unsuitable NOW, or unavailable NOW, doesn't mean she will be in an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year...

Definitely. I've burned bridges like no tomorrow in my life. It's an old habit to get out of. Especially when it comes to women because I believe you've got one shot with a girl, and if you mess it up, she's never going to want you. Bad mindset, I know, but it's there.

Go look up the definition of opinion. Then tell me that a disctionary has value because it is opinion. Then go look up the definitions of the words love, like, and ****.

Lol, I didn't mean anything by it, besides, why would I do that? To internalize more opinions that I don't share?

I'm completely lost here. ><

So you need to learn how to think like someone else then. Put yourself in her shoes, and think in terms of what she is experiencing. Then adjust your approach to match what she would be comfortable with, respond well to, and so forth. It's important to understand female psychology for your society, her body language, be able to read vocal cues, facial cues, and interpret her actions. You have to learn to understand what her personality is and how to interact with it.

One thing I can share is that I have noted a significant correlation between certain body types and their ability to handle "no tact". The ones who handle it best in females are the tall athletic ones. Then comes the tiny petite ones. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Tall athletic women can dig no tact? Sweet. Those are the ones I like. At any rate, I'll be more conscious of body language from here on out. Don't know what I'm looking for, but I can tell the difference between a good reaction and a bad reaction. So I might as well start there.

As I said above, tact is the art of understanding how to adjust what you say and do to be comfortably received by the person you are dealing with. To do that, you have to understand the person you are dealing with. Barring that, the general rules of tact are commonly called "good manners".

Good manners=Nice Guy syndrome I always thought, no? I must admit I have trouble with my manners around women because I always assume I'm being a nice guy and ruining my chances. Being an A-hole just doesn't feel right, and I don't do what doesn't feel right so yeah. I'm noticing I'm trapping myself behind a wall of assumptions. Egad.

You also have to deliver the punch line at the right time. Too fast, too slow, too early or too late and it's game over. That means you have to understand what she's thinking, and responding with, and how she's thinking, and why.

Your job is to lead her to the place in her own mind, body and emotions in which she is ready, willing and able to do what you want to do. To do that, you have to understand her and work with her.

:o

Sounds exasperating.

All humans want, at some level, to have sex with every possible mate. My worry is that you're not going to "meet her half way", but actively seduce her into sex and then claim that "she obviously wanted it too", when she may not have been in full conscious or logical control of herself after her sexual arousal was up.

Well Shannon, the way I am now, you could very well be right, if I had the skill. But I don't. I'm using your subs to get this skill, and these subs are changing the way I see things.

I have no doubt that when I start to get good at this, my mind will have adjusted to be more forgiving and able to see the big picture a little better. All I can do now is respond from where I am.

It is my sincere hope that I will come to a place where I can enjoy the women I want which will hopefully include women that are on the fence or on my side. Seduction takes too much work anyhow, and so I won't do any unnecessary work just to bang a woman who may or may not be able to keep coming back for more. Or, who may be a risk to me (like guns Shannon, no thanks )

I had a girlfriend or two who was faithful to a fault until she was sufficiently aroused in one specific way, and then it was anything goes. With anyone and everyone. Was fine, until someone pushed the right buttons while trying to seduce her, even knowing she was involved. She got hurt badly in the deal, and I didn't fare much better. But jackass was too selfish and stupid to know, understand or care. You have to consider the consequences of your actions, for you, her, and everyone she is involved with and caring for.

So true.

You raise a valid point, and the answer is that I do put the blame equally on the woman. I have always been amazed at how guys act like she's blameless when clearly she either initiated it or at least willingly participated. That's *****. Which is why I have a zero tolerance policy for betrayal. I have been burned too many times with that.

Now then... your age? I'm going to guess you're in your early to mid 20's.

Ah, this is great to read.

And yes sir, you are correct. I am 25 years old. What made you think so?

You certainly can sacrifice your life to have an orgasm, or your safety, or your health, any time you want.

Lol, indeed.

Hmmm. Your ideal and everyone else's may be a little bit at odds. Which could maybe cause some friction.

Happens all the time my friend, all the time.

You are comparing apples to oranges to mislead the argument away from the truth. The truth is, you have the knowledge that your actions have an impact on those around you,

And the gay kid doesn't?

I didn't write all this because I want you to experience what I did.

I know that, thanks Shannon. You've given me some great food for thought, don't hesitate to challenge me any time. No one I know does it in real life, it's refreshing.

If a woman wants to be with me, she acts like it. Otherwise, she is always welcome to leave at any time. I don't try to force anyone to stay with me, and I'd rather she leave than be around if she isn't going to abide by the rules she agreed to when we started the relationship. If that includes her being sexually and romantically faithful to me, then she's not free to both play with others and be with me. So if a woman I claim was to play with you, it would simply be a case of she's not acting like it, so she's not mine anymore. I have no respect for a man who does that, but that was her choice, and my primary beef is with her.

But if you do more than meet her half way... then I have a beef with you specifically, as well as her.

Wait... are you saying you have relations with women where the deal is you can have as many girlfriends as you want but they ALL have to be faithful only to you? How does that work?

[Shannon]

Oh, but I do. You have completely discounted that I can have sex with her whenever I want now. The future does not equal the past. As long as we are both in a situation where we are open to having sex, it can happen. I may not take it, but my access is there whenever I want it, probably for years into the future.

I never thought of it that way. I'm definitely quick to throw people under the bus just because of a simple misunderstanding or misfire. I even do this to myself which is, I believe, a huge factor in why I'm not as successful as I'd like to be. The more mistakes you make, the faster you learn, and all that. I'm just hung up on being a sniper, what I gotta do is get myself an M60 and just fire away.

Slow and steady wins the race. Think about now, and the future, and choose the longest term success possible.

Go look up the definition of opinion. Then tell me that a disctionary has value because it is opinion. Then go look up the definitions of the words love, like, and ****.

Lol, I didn't mean anything by it, besides, why would I do that? To internalize more opinions that I don't share?

I'm completely lost here. ><

The dictionary does not deal in opinions.

One thing I can share is that I have noted a significant correlation between certain body types and their ability to handle "no tact". The ones who handle it best in females are the tall athletic ones. Then comes the tiny petite ones. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Tall athletic women can dig no tact? Sweet. Those are the ones I like. At any rate, I'll be more conscious of body language from here on out. Don't know what I'm looking for, but I can tell the difference between a good reaction and a bad reaction. So I might as well start there.

We went from "The ones who handle it best in females are the tall athletic ones." to "Tall athletic women can dig no tact." I said they as a group have the highest percentage of members who understand and handle it well, you said they all like it.

As I said above, tact is the art of understanding how to adjust what you say and do to be comfortably received by the person you are dealing with. To do that, you have to understand the person you are dealing with. Barring that, the general rules of tact are commonly called "good manners".

Good manners=Nice Guy syndrome I always thought, no? I must admit I have trouble with my manners around women because I always assume I'm being a nice guy and ruining my chances. Being an A-hole just doesn't feel right, and I don't do what doesn't feel right so yeah. I'm noticing I'm trapping myself behind a wall of assumptions. Egad.

Good manners doesn't equal nice guy. Good manners, done right, is a strong indicator of high class, which is higher value. There's a big difference between beta male and polite alpha.

It is my sincere hope that I will come to a place where I can enjoy the women I want which will hopefully include women that are on the fence or on my side. Seduction takes too much work anyhow, and so I won't do any unnecessary work just to bang a woman who may or may not be able to keep coming back for more. Or, who may be a risk to me (like guns Shannon, no thanks )

Seduction is a wonderful game to play with a woman, but you have to know how to play it, and find a woman who is willing to play. Find such a woman, and it can be quite enjoyable. At least... I find it so.

You raise a valid point, and the answer is that I do put the blame equally on the woman. I have always been amazed at how guys act like she's blameless when clearly she either initiated it or at least willingly participated. That's *****. Which is why I have a zero tolerance policy for betrayal. I have been burned too many times with that.

Now then... your age? I'm going to guess you're in your early to mid 20's.

Ah, this is great to read.

And yes sir, you are correct. I am 25 years old. What made you think so?

The fact that I was 25 when I almost got my head blown off for doing what I did with someone else's wife, because I was thinking just like you were. I assure you, it is something I feel shame for to this very day, and that burden is worse than the fear of death because it is a long term pain. In the end, he forgave me, and I still haven't, all these years later.

If a woman wants to be with me, she acts like it. Otherwise, she is always welcome to leave at any time. I don't try to force anyone to stay with me, and I'd rather she leave than be around if she isn't going to abide by the rules she agreed to when we started the relationship. If that includes her being sexually and romantically faithful to me, then she's not free to both play with others and be with me. So if a woman I claim was to play with you, it would simply be a case of she's not acting like it, so she's not mine anymore. I have no respect for a man who does that, but that was her choice, and my primary beef is with her.

But if you do more than meet her half way... then I have a beef with you specifically, as well as her.

Wait... are you saying you have relations with women where the deal is you can have as many girlfriends as you want but they ALL have to be faithful only to you? How does that work?

[/quote]

In those cases where I have multiple girlfriends, the rules are, she must be faithful to me, but I can have anyone I want. This is unfair in that I have multiple partners and she does not, but it is also the only way to ensure we are all safe having sex. Since none of my girlfriends are there by force, and always by choice, it's not an issue. If they want to be with me, they naturally want to also feel safe doing so, and that is a big part of how I ensure the safety of the group. It is my responsibility to care for the group in choosing my girlfriends wisely.

How does it work? Very well, as long as each one wants to be part of my group. The only thing I ask of them is that they excuse themselves from the group before having sex with anyone else if they decide they're no longer happy with the arrangement, so that nobody inside the group runs the risk of disease.

Usually what happens is that if I choose to have multiple simultaneous girlfriends, I accumulate them until I have 4 to 6 and then it becomes difficult to manage them all and I pick one and let the rest go. If you find women who are willing to play by the rules you set out, and they are willing and mature enough to get along, then it's not a problem, aside from fair distribution of time and attention. If not, they begin to get restless and in order to prevent hurt feelings, you have to start disbanding the group, or become more aggressively dominant with enforcing the rules. I usually just disband, since I don't like the idea of forcing anything on them.

The rules of course change if I am seeking a monogamous relationship.

[About]

Thanks for the apology, Shannon. I've tried reading the jibberish (to me) but I can't stay interested in it too long. It's not a topic I want to start commenting and get into this big discussion you two are in.

Which sub would you say helped the most to give you that mindset?

All of them, honestly. I don't think the subs give us mindsets but the tools to believe in whatever mindset we want to develop. The AM runs that I do made me believe in myself more and more (core foundation) and then the subsequent SM1.0 and WM2.0 (in progress) add onto my experience and build off each other. SM1.0, I didn't think I was some stud immediately, nor do I necessarily do now. It promised me that I would get laid and lo behold, I got laid by stage 6. I was seduced by a woman like it said, who turned out to be my now ex-girlfriend after some time and boy did that teach me some important lessons.

But, to be perfectly clear it was definitely my experiences during use of the WM2.0 sub that led me more towards that mindset. The only reason I say all of them is because you become what you are through your experiences and through all mine I became who I am so far. I think the best part is that I'm still growing and learning more and more.

[Shannon]

I have to apologize again, I didn't intend to keep going that long after apologizing the first time. I'm done.