(12-19-2015, 10:16 AM)K-Train Wrote: You say you're not an expert but you're very adamant that you know more than an individual who has studied this particular subject area for at least a decade??? Your opinions on the AP code (which I don't entirely disagree with BTW) is one thing but considering Shannon has researched subliminals and produced subliminals that work (by your own admission) then I'd say on this particular issue I'm going to have lean with his expertise. I do agree that one cannot prevent EVERYTHING from being absorbed by the subconscious, even Shannon has admitted that, but using name embeds could reduce the effectiveness enough to wear it would make the individual more likely to just buy their own copy from Indigo Mind Labs.

As far as the threat of a future competitor, that's actually a valid possibility and was actually demonstrated this year by PS4 vs Xbox One where Xbox One (Microsoft) considered not allowing the purchase of used games whereas PS4 (Sony) did. Microsoft changed their tune of course but it did hurt them as PS4 eclipsed them in sales. So yes, you are IMO correct that Shannon's AP code could cost him customers if another company rises up. Which is why I propose he find an alternative solution to it other than simply removing it (although I wouldn't complain if he did remove it).

Here's the thing though Justin, you're saying "just let live". Ok. Well obviously I'm not going to complain much if the AP code gets taken out because I'll be able to share subliminals much more easily with other people and can split the price of a $500 sub with a buddy so if the price of subliminals stays the same I (the customer) am going to win out. My issue is that Shannon may then opt to simply jack the prices up to compensate for the losses or implement another strategy to cover up the losses. IF he's going to increase the price I'd rather it be done in a way such as the one I described (or something similar) that provides benefit to both customer and owner while simultaneously helping to protect his property.

EDIT: Did some editing on the first paragraph for spelling errors.

(12-19-2015, 10:07 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:01 AM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 09:46 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: Can ANYONE tell me why they want the APcode programmed into their heads?

CAN ANY OF YOU TELL ME WHY?

Can any one of you people tell me, and swear on your life, that if there were 2 versions of every sub, one with APcode and one without APcode, you would choose the one with APCode?

Can ANY of you tell me that in all honesty?

If you can't tell, it's a rhetorical question, I already know that nobody would choose the sub with the APcode.

Now, ask yourself why you're defending it so much.

Maybe cult like idol worshiping?

Could be, but we as humans don't admit stuff like that to ourselves.

You're being a baby about it.

Weren't you the one that was just talking about name calling? Lmao!

Maybe I'm just not a bitch or a suck up or a pushover.

(12-19-2015, 10:43 AM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:07 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:01 AM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 09:46 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: Can ANYONE tell me why they want the APcode programmed into their heads?

CAN ANY OF YOU TELL ME WHY?

Can any one of you people tell me, and swear on your life, that if there were 2 versions of every sub, one with APcode and one without APcode, you would choose the one with APCode?

Can ANY of you tell me that in all honesty?

If you can't tell, it's a rhetorical question, I already know that nobody would choose the sub with the APcode.

Now, ask yourself why you're defending it so much.

Maybe cult like idol worshiping?

Could be, but we as humans don't admit stuff like that to ourselves.

You're being a baby about it.

Weren't you the one that was just talking about name calling? Lmao!

Maybe I'm just not a bitch or a suck up or a pushover.

Again, ad hominem , you ignore the logic . In favor of disrespect.
And thus proving my point, with your desperation and your insults.
Lose the names and start logically stating why the AP code is unnecessary.
It's a store, the merchandise needs security tags. Simple.
Your turn.

(12-19-2015, 10:47 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:43 AM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:07 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:01 AM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 09:46 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: Can ANYONE tell me why they want the APcode programmed into their heads?

CAN ANY OF YOU TELL ME WHY?

Can any one of you people tell me, and swear on your life, that if there were 2 versions of every sub, one with APcode and one without APcode, you would choose the one with APCode?

Can ANY of you tell me that in all honesty?

If you can't tell, it's a rhetorical question, I already know that nobody would choose the sub with the APcode.

Now, ask yourself why you're defending it so much.

Maybe cult like idol worshiping?

Could be, but we as humans don't admit stuff like that to ourselves.

You're being a baby about it.

Weren't you the one that was just talking about name calling? Lmao!

Maybe I'm just not a bitch or a suck up or a pushover.

Again, ad hominem , you ignore the logic . In favor of disrespect.
And thus proving my point, with your desperation and your insults.
Lose the names and start logically stating why the AP code is unnecessary.
It's a store, the merchandise needs security tags. Simple.
Your turn.

You're ignorant and looking for an argument.

Online business's obviously don't have security like in a retail store.

If Shannon wants that type of security, he's more then welcome to put his programs on CD's and sell them in retail stores.

(12-19-2015, 10:30 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: Name embeds would make a sub not as good, or maybe take longer to work, and probably work better and faster for people who have the same name, but what I'm saying is name embeds wouldn't stop someone with a different name from benefiting.

TheRealJustin]

Knowing how loose his thoughts are on piracy, I realize that in his eyes, I am committing piracy every time I go to youtube . com, or turn on my ipod. [/quote]

Maybe it is but in regards to youtube and/or iPod he has no jurisdiction unless were talking about his programs

[quote= Wrote:Okay, and every sub I listen to is programming HIS idea of piracy into MY fu*king head, and I PERSONALLY have a COMPLETELY different view on it, and my point is that, I, as a PAYING customer with REAL money should not have to have that sh*t programmed into my head just because OTHER PEOPLE out there are stealing sh*t.

I don't care about other people stealing sh*t, that's not why I buy these fu*king subs. I buy these subs FOR ME to benefit from, and I shouldn't have to have that sh*t programmed into my head because other people want to get Shannon's subs for free.

Even though his AP code is specified for his stuff (which I still think is insanely wrong but doesn't affect me) I'm eventually still going to be affected by the APcode in some way with things that are completely unrelated to Shannon's subs, just like if I listened to a sub say "I nick am extremely confident" Eventually, I would become extremely confident even though my name isn't Nick.

Okay, it's not right for me to have to have the apcode playing in my head. I bought my subs I did not steal them so why should I have to have my beliefs changed that I do not want changed?

(12-19-2015, 10:54 AM)K-Train Wrote: [quote='TheRealJustin' pid='93856' dateline='1450549831']

Name embeds would make a sub not as good, or maybe take longer to work, and probably work better and faster for people who have the same name, but what I'm saying is name embeds wouldn't stop someone with a different name from benefiting.

TheRealJustin]

Knowing how loose his thoughts are on piracy, I realize that in his eyes, I am committing piracy every time I go to youtube . com, or turn on my ipod. [/quote]

Maybe it is but in regards to youtube and/or iPod he has no jurisdiction unless were talking about his programs

[quote= Wrote:Okay, and every sub I listen to is programming HIS idea of piracy into MY fu*king head, and I PERSONALLY have a COMPLETELY different view on it, and my point is that, I, as a PAYING customer with REAL money should not have to have that sh*t programmed into my head just because OTHER PEOPLE out there are stealing sh*t.

I don't care about other people stealing sh*t, that's not why I buy these fu*king subs. I buy these subs FOR ME to benefit from, and I shouldn't have to have that sh*t programmed into my head because other people want to get Shannon's subs for free.

Even though his AP code is specified for his stuff (which I still think is insanely wrong but doesn't affect me) I'm eventually still going to be affected by the APcode in some way with things that are completely unrelated to Shannon's subs, just like if I listened to a sub say "I nick am extremely confident" Eventually, I would become extremely confident even though my name isn't Nick.

Okay, it's not right for me to have to have the apcode playing in my head. I bought my subs I did not steal them so why should I have to have my beliefs changed that I do not want changed?

(12-19-2015, 10:54 AM)Darkness Wrote: That type of thinking , bc everyone does it I should too, doesn't foster intellectual independence . And since online business don't ,they're at greater risk for loss. Hence the need for protection from piracy. Thus the AP Code.

(12-19-2015, 11:02 AM)K-Train Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 10:54 AM)Darkness Wrote: That type of thinking , bc everyone does it I should too, doesn't foster intellectual independence . And since online business don't ,they're at greater risk for loss. Hence the need for protection from piracy. Thus the AP Code.

Yeah this is the problem right here. Online businesses that sell digital media are in a tough spot since they don't have actual physical property. They pretty much leave it up to the business owners to fight for themselves. When you leave people to fight for themselves they're going to utilize different ways of protecting themselves. I feel in the future the government will have to agree upon a possible list of legal actions that online owners can take to protect their media.

(12-19-2015, 11:02 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: I agree, but I already spent the money and bought the subs. I would much rather keep using and buying subs from this company than not, but I may have to look around for the next best thing.

You are right though, my opinion on apcode will not change, and nobody should stand for it.

(12-19-2015, 11:10 AM)K-Train Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 11:02 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: I agree, but I already spent the money and bought the subs. I would much rather keep using and buying subs from this company than not, but I may have to look around for the next best thing.

You are right though, my opinion on apcode will not change, and nobody should stand for it.

Well regardless of whether you stay here or go elsewhere I tip my hat to ya for sticking up for what you believe in and wish you luck amigo.

• Shannon is currently employing a "security through obscurity" DRM model on his digital audio products. Because nobody currently knows the exact procedure Shannon performs to produce his work that in and of itself is a deterrent to reverse engineer it. That being said, this mainly means two things seemingly paradoxical: even if someone knew the exact script Shannon wrote, producing the exact same output with the same or better efficacy is nearly impossible without following Shannon's exact procedure step by step; and, as always, if someone is truly determined to "crack the code" and is reasonably skilled and/or knowledgeable in effective methods of reverse engineering, it can and eventually will be done, but the deterrence simply affects how long and how much effort it takes to do so. Also, circumvention of "security methods" on digital audio is only illegal if the intent is to distribute the circumvented software illegally, the DMCA actually allows exemptions for circumvention for educational purposes and certain "freedom of choice" purposes like jailbreaking or unlocking a phone to change carriers or to install a custom OS.
  
• Circumvention of "security" in digital audio can be done mainly one of two ways, either at the binary level or at the audio level. The first is akin to modifying data directly in something like a hex editor (accounts for run-of-the-mill DRM like locking a song to a specific iTunes account) and the second is basically using an audio editor to process and modify the sound produced. Since Shannon's security method is script-based, removing it requires the latter, editing the sound wave itself; even with knowledge of the exact script Shannon uses for AP it will be statistically impossible for someone to perform the audio transformations necessary to remove it from IML subs and leave the rest of the script intact unless they also either have knowledge of Shannon's procedure, are willing to perform a massive amount of trial-and-error, and/or have more audio DSP knowledge than Shannon and can and is willing to "beat him at his own game," so to speak. So far only the middle kind of cracker (the brute force, trial-and-error kind) exists for someone wanting to circumvent IML subs.
  
• History has shown time and time again that the harder it is for someone to experience and enjoy a product, the more likely a competitor with a similar but easier to use product will succeed and force the original producer to either adapt or die. iTunes, the current #1 online music store, originally had DRM on songs but thanks to Amazon offering the same music at the same price and quality but DRM-free and taking their business they now no longer do so. Adobe's products are repeatedly pirated because they charge prohibitively high prices, and products like Sketch (graphics) and Coda (web development) succeed and eat Adobe's lunch because they're less expensive, better quality, and Adobe's response is instead to move to a more prohibitive pricing model (from the one-time-cost Creative Suite to the monthly-subscription Creative Cloud) they ignorantly believe is the better solution to their problem and will price them out of market leadership.
  
• There was a fourth thing, but by the time I got to this point I forgot what it was going to be. Probably something about customer satisfaction or something.
  

Quote:Look Shannon, I get it, you have a strong opinion about your programmes.

Quote:When i said the end user has a right to do as he pleases, your licencing examples of OS's are a weak example, nothing controls how an end user HAS to use their OS, nothing controls how an end user HAS to use their video games, even if these are licensed products, there is nothing in any stipulation that stops a user from sharing these.

Quote: I completely understand that you wouldn't want your products shared across the internet for free, but the level of control you are imposing over a product you've sold is a little concerning, especially since your products are designed to improve peoples lives.

Quote:I think its ridiculous that you expect me to pay $500 for a product, and if i get results and say tell my brother or my friend to give it a try you expect them to also hunt out your website spend $500 when all they have is my word, haha its ridiculous thats no way to treat a customer and not a very good reputation to have in any market, basically If i was to let my brother use a product i purchased from you, we would both be in violation of your AP code and whatever would or wouldn't happen.

Quote:If i let my brother use my mac apple would not dream of ever stopping my mac from working properly until my brother paid the full retail price, when I'm playing a video game and my friend wants a shot my game doesnt decide it can no longer function in an appropriate manner because someone who doesnt own it has played.

Quote:if either of those examples did what your ap code did, then both apple nor the game developer/publisher/licencee would eventually go about of business.

Quote:Its a poor way to treat customers, I get it, don't spread my products around because I'll lose money, but the amount of control you try to execute over your customers is frankly disgusting practice, if this was any other niche you'd be screwed.

Quote:If you want to sell me a product and control everything i do with that product then i shouldn't be paying $500 i should be paying a subscription to the sub that i am running.

Quote:I'm only so shocked, because when i first discovered indigo mind labs about 5 years ago, a friend of mine put DAOS and AM on my ipod, and said here try these out they are good and the guy who sells them is a pretty awesome guy, I tried them, i saw some fantastic results and in the 4 years since I've invested over $2000 on your products across my two accounts

Quote:, and back then I thought you were genuinely a good person and I was especially impressed with the cancer healing aid sub you give away for free, back then I knew a person who was going through chemotherapy so it was a great supportive sub for her and the fact it was free showed a humanitarian side to the company, 2 years later I send her MLS which i had used too, she saw results and has since purchased numerous products from you. Unforunately now I dont see a humanitarian company, it is so about money with you that the act of sharing a subliminal (which the end user now owns after purchase) invalidates the subliminal, I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum that was introduced to your work by a method that would activate the AP code.

Quote:So in interest, what happens if I go 50/50 with someone to purchase a subliminal? lets say $500 dollars is a bit of a stretch for a sub but my friend wants to run it too and we buy it 50/50, what happens?

Quote:Do we both equally get half the value or does neither of us get any value?

Quote:What if my grandparents want to quit smoking and I buy them one of your subs, to play in their living room, does it only work effectively for one of them, one person paid and distributed it to two people. Does the act of distributing the sub to my 2 grandparents mess up my use of the current sub I am running.

Quote:I know this board is policed by Indigo Mind Labs so you may not see it so much here, but have a look around on other forums etc, you might be surprised by the amount of the negative publicity this company is getting because of this anti-piracy thing.

Quote:I have to agree with the outside opinion, as much as I love your products, you already control how we run them through instructions, now you are controlling the way we own a product we bought, and yes we buy them, so from a legal standpoint, any media that is purchased and then downloaded unless specifically of a rental nature is owned by the end user,

Quote:once it reaches our hands its our copy of your program, and I personally see nothing wrong with giving my copy to someone else to try, which I've done and I know 4 people in my job that have purchased from you because of a file I gave them, however since you don't want us too provide feedback and free advertisement in this manner, I will no longer share my older subliminals with people I know nor will I recommend people I know too check you out as I don't agree with your ethics and your overpowering need to control, perhaps consider changing the title of BAMM to something more appropriate!