(12-19-2015, 11:52 AM)Survivor Wrote: Minititan's posts are valuable ,Shannon.They are on the previos page.They provide some good reasons why removing the AP code would be beneficial for you in the long term.

And Justin is right.This whole thing 'ap code-I -won't- tell-exactly-what-it-is ' is shady and fear-inducing.Please find a way to change that, Shannon.

And I noticed something very interesting . On page 4, post #77 , Shannon says 'My AP code concerns my subs only.I'm not trying to change your tune on any product but my own.' On the previous pages you say something like ' Justin, read the faq and don't waste my time', this one is not quoted.Well, let's take a quote from the FAQ : ' The anti-piracy measures in the subliminals that include them are designed to cause people who would pirate our subliminals, and commit piracy IN GENERAL, to stop doing so.' Oops. What is this? IN GENERAL. Why are you lying Shannon, deliberately or not to Justin? So that he can stop writing his concerns? And le's face it, even if Shannon will tell us :' ok customers, I will remove ap code for your convenience' he may still not remove it, after all, who is gonna find out about it? Nobody will.
Yeah, Shannon is all about honesty, yet we should keep in mind that Shannon is a human and as we know, humans 1) are egoistical creatures 2) CHANGE . After all, we 're talking subliminals here.NOBODY can find out what goes into the scripts of the subliminal programs, NOBODY - Shannon has made sure nobody can find a way to do it.

Justin has very good points.Something has to change about this code.Maybe its presence should not be there.

Shannon, just because the fewer forum members years ago were Ok with the AP code doesn't mean we're agreeing with this now.

(12-19-2015, 05:26 AM)Darkness Wrote: Stealing is stealing.

(12-19-2015, 02:09 PM)apollolux Wrote: First sale, license vs. copy vs. ownership, DRM, artificial scarcity on digital products, anti-circumvention, etc etc etc.

The same stuff is being said over and over. Here are the facts:

• Shannon is currently employing a "security through obscurity" DRM model on his digital audio products. Because nobody currently knows the exact procedure Shannon performs to produce his work that in and of itself is a deterrent to reverse engineer it. That being said, this mainly means two things seemingly paradoxical: even if someone knew the exact script Shannon wrote, producing the exact same output with the same or better efficacy is nearly impossible without following Shannon's exact procedure step by step; and, as always, if someone is truly determined to "crack the code" and is reasonably skilled and/or knowledgeable in effective methods of reverse engineering, it can and eventually will be done, but the deterrence simply affects how long and how much effort it takes to do so. Also, circumvention of "security methods" on digital audio is only illegal if the intent is to distribute the circumvented software illegally, the DMCA actually allows exemptions for circumvention for educational purposes and certain "freedom of choice" purposes like jailbreaking or unlocking a phone to change carriers or to install a custom OS.
  
• Circumvention of "security" in digital audio can be done mainly one of two ways, either at the binary level or at the audio level. The first is akin to modifying data directly in something like a hex editor (accounts for run-of-the-mill DRM like locking a song to a specific iTunes account) and the second is basically using an audio editor to process and modify the sound produced. Since Shannon's security method is script-based, removing it requires the latter, editing the sound wave itself; even with knowledge of the exact script Shannon uses for AP it will be statistically impossible for someone to perform the audio transformations necessary to remove it from IML subs and leave the rest of the script intact unless they also either have knowledge of Shannon's procedure, are willing to perform a massive amount of trial-and-error, and/or have more audio DSP knowledge than Shannon and can and is willing to "beat him at his own game," so to speak. So far only the middle kind of cracker (the brute force, trial-and-error kind) exists for someone wanting to circumvent IML subs.
  
• History has shown time and time again that the harder it is for someone to experience and enjoy a product, the more likely a competitor with a similar but easier to use product will succeed and force the original producer to either adapt or die. iTunes, the current #1 online music store, originally had DRM on songs but thanks to Amazon offering the same music at the same price and quality but DRM-free and taking their business they now no longer do so. Adobe's products are repeatedly pirated because they charge prohibitively high prices, and products like Sketch (graphics) and Coda (web development) succeed and eat Adobe's lunch because they're less expensive, better quality, and Adobe's response is instead to move to a more prohibitive pricing model (from the one-time-cost Creative Suite to the monthly-subscription Creative Cloud) they ignorantly believe is the better solution to their problem and will price them out of market leadership.
  
• There was a fourth thing, but by the time I got to this point I forgot what it was going to be. Probably something about customer satisfaction or something.
  

tl;dr:

@Shannon - Technologically, there is nothing to worry about releasing the script you use for AP. It's not possible at this point in time for someone to circumvent it digitally because no one yet possesses the necessary knowledge and/or skill set to do so, nor is it likely someone will in the near future. That being said, it is difficult to prevent, say, a "pirate" or group of "pirates" from buying or organizing a "group buy," purchasing from the shop using those funds, and then later distributing those subs either within the group involved or to the public in general via torrents or something. It's not competitors currently stealing your work and passing it off as their own you should worry about nor is it the minority of people who would torrent or distribute on torrent your work no matter what, it's losing paying customers who don't believe or have faith that you won't use your knowledge of psychological scripting for nefarious purposes. A little will go a long way towards reassurances, and even if a competitor copies your AP script into their motivational offerings after you release it they still won't have products nearly as effective as IML products. Also, as a businessman you should probably be more concerned with the potential loss of business from existing customers who may have wanted to buy more subs in the future rather than potential future customers who haven't even given a dime to you yet; customer retention is almost always more important than customer acquisition and you should know better than most here the importance of repeat business.

@Others - There is a lot of fear-mongering going on in this thread, a bit from Shannon in response to what's being posted but mostly from everyone else. I hope the information I've provided in this post is useful enough and accurate enough to educate on some points that may have been lost in the shuffle. Concern about the messaging we absorb from these subs can be legit, but will get lost in the mix if we resort to unnecessary ad hominem attacks and talking about things unrelated to the topics at hand.

(small edits for grammar and clarification)

(12-19-2015, 06:15 PM)Shannon Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 02:09 PM)apollolux Wrote: First sale, license vs. copy vs. ownership, DRM, artificial scarcity on digital products, anti-circumvention, etc etc etc.

The same stuff is being said over and over. Here are the facts:

• Shannon is currently employing a "security through obscurity" DRM model on his digital audio products. Because nobody currently knows the exact procedure Shannon performs to produce his work that in and of itself is a deterrent to reverse engineer it. That being said, this mainly means two things seemingly paradoxical: even if someone knew the exact script Shannon wrote, producing the exact same output with the same or better efficacy is nearly impossible without following Shannon's exact procedure step by step; and, as always, if someone is truly determined to "crack the code" and is reasonably skilled and/or knowledgeable in effective methods of reverse engineering, it can and eventually will be done, but the deterrence simply affects how long and how much effort it takes to do so. Also, circumvention of "security methods" on digital audio is only illegal if the intent is to distribute the circumvented software illegally, the DMCA actually allows exemptions for circumvention for educational purposes and certain "freedom of choice" purposes like jailbreaking or unlocking a phone to change carriers or to install a custom OS.
  
• Circumvention of "security" in digital audio can be done mainly one of two ways, either at the binary level or at the audio level. The first is akin to modifying data directly in something like a hex editor (accounts for run-of-the-mill DRM like locking a song to a specific iTunes account) and the second is basically using an audio editor to process and modify the sound produced. Since Shannon's security method is script-based, removing it requires the latter, editing the sound wave itself; even with knowledge of the exact script Shannon uses for AP it will be statistically impossible for someone to perform the audio transformations necessary to remove it from IML subs and leave the rest of the script intact unless they also either have knowledge of Shannon's procedure, are willing to perform a massive amount of trial-and-error, and/or have more audio DSP knowledge than Shannon and can and is willing to "beat him at his own game," so to speak. So far only the middle kind of cracker (the brute force, trial-and-error kind) exists for someone wanting to circumvent IML subs.
  
• History has shown time and time again that the harder it is for someone to experience and enjoy a product, the more likely a competitor with a similar but easier to use product will succeed and force the original producer to either adapt or die. iTunes, the current #1 online music store, originally had DRM on songs but thanks to Amazon offering the same music at the same price and quality but DRM-free and taking their business they now no longer do so. Adobe's products are repeatedly pirated because they charge prohibitively high prices, and products like Sketch (graphics) and Coda (web development) succeed and eat Adobe's lunch because they're less expensive, better quality, and Adobe's response is instead to move to a more prohibitive pricing model (from the one-time-cost Creative Suite to the monthly-subscription Creative Cloud) they ignorantly believe is the better solution to their problem and will price them out of market leadership.
  
• There was a fourth thing, but by the time I got to this point I forgot what it was going to be. Probably something about customer satisfaction or something.
  

tl;dr:

@Shannon - Technologically, there is nothing to worry about releasing the script you use for AP. It's not possible at this point in time for someone to circumvent it digitally because no one yet possesses the necessary knowledge and/or skill set to do so, nor is it likely someone will in the near future. That being said, it is difficult to prevent, say, a "pirate" or group of "pirates" from buying or organizing a "group buy," purchasing from the shop using those funds, and then later distributing those subs either within the group involved or to the public in general via torrents or something. It's not competitors currently stealing your work and passing it off as their own you should worry about nor is it the minority of people who would torrent or distribute on torrent your work no matter what, it's losing paying customers who don't believe or have faith that you won't use your knowledge of psychological scripting for nefarious purposes. A little will go a long way towards reassurances, and even if a competitor copies your AP script into their motivational offerings after you release it they still won't have products nearly as effective as IML products. Also, as a businessman you should probably be more concerned with the potential loss of business from existing customers who may have wanted to buy more subs in the future rather than potential future customers who haven't even given a dime to you yet; customer retention is almost always more important than customer acquisition and you should know better than most here the importance of repeat business.

@Others - There is a lot of fear-mongering going on in this thread, a bit from Shannon in response to what's being posted but mostly from everyone else. I hope the information I've provided in this post is useful enough and accurate enough to educate on some points that may have been lost in the shuffle. Concern about the messaging we absorb from these subs can be legit, but will get lost in the mix if we resort to unnecessary ad hominem attacks and talking about things unrelated to the topics at hand.

(small edits for grammar and clarification)

There is no way to reverse engineer my audio and remove the AP code. The way it is created prevents that. It's about like trying to remove the vanilla from a cake batter after you have mixed it. You have to remove it from the script and rebuild.

I'm looking at my AP code. It specifies not my products in general, but the specific program in which it is found. It also does not include what I thought it did. The code for extracting equal value is not here. Not sure how that happened. So basically it's just trying to educate people and get people to follow copyright law.

What I propose as a solution that works for everyone is that you guys help me craft some AP code that is publicly visible that we can all agree on. I don't see a better solution than that.

It does me no goods to spend all this time fighting to explain what you guys are afraid of because I can't share it freely. It does me no good to have people afraid to use my stuff. But I also can't have people just walzing off with it. So let's come up with something that pleases everyone.

(12-19-2015, 06:15 PM)Shannon Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 02:09 PM)apollolux Wrote: [ ... my long explanation ... ]

There is no way to reverse engineer my audio and remove the AP code. The way it is created prevents that. It's about like trying to remove the vanilla from a cake batter after you have mixed it. You have to remove it from the script and rebuild.

(12-19-2015, 06:15 PM)Shannon Wrote: What I propose as a solution that works for everyone is that you guys help me craft some AP code that is publicly visible that we can all agree on. I don't see a better solution than that.

It does me no goods to spend all this time fighting to explain what you guys are afraid of because I can't share it freely. It does me no good to have people afraid to use my stuff. But I also can't have people just walzing off with it. So let's come up with something that pleases everyone.

(12-19-2015, 06:11 PM)Minititan Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 05:26 AM)Darkness Wrote: Stealing is stealing.

However what constitutes as stealing, if two people both invest in the product together which one is the thief, if a parent buys a video game for two children to share, who stole the video game. If I buy life tune up for a friend of mine and he plays it over stereo speakers in the same room he sleeps with his wife which one of them is the thief. In that scenario is it even fair for an apcode to exist. Does a couple who want to run the same sub in bed while they sleep have to both buy a copy to receive benefit. The method is unethical because you can't assume that the product is being bought for an individual, if it is and couples can't invest together why would they even consider this when they can turn to the millions of free subliminals on YouTube. Just what part of that is fair? What part of that is stealing? Apple lets me share my purchases with 4 other people, when I rent a digital movie to chill and watch with my girlfriend on a Friday night, I don't rent it twice. It's unfair. It's unethical. And like stated many times the apcode is developed from a scarcity mindset, it's all about pinching the consumer dry, good strategy for making some extra dough in the short term but frankly people will begin to lose trust, so I recently bought MLS 5G for myself and I have also been letting my 22 year old brother use it, (I know, by defintion my copy of MLS+Stop Piracy is technically not being used in accordance with the AP code) but I'll give you my reasoning as a consumer why I have done this

My brother was born with learning disabilities, he still lives with my mum he can't get a job because no one will hire him, I'm doing Japanese at university, he's fascinated with it I love taking the time out to teach him some when I can, he is good at recognising the kanji characters as they are more pictographic than our alphabet, it would take him about 15 minutes to read a short paragraph this size (5ish lines).

However, he can recognise the pictographs and can process it faster than he can English, he's been using MLS for about 4 weeks and yes we checked with his physician to ensure it was safe for him to run subliminal products and she could see no harm in trying, in fact he loves the sub, he has been studying and drawing the characters and it's amazing for me too see him be able to achieve this as there has always been a communication barrier as he struggles to write or text me, and I haven't lived with him for 13 years, but now my brother loves playing his MLS ocean surf track and can now actually text me in Japanese, his speech has also dramatically improved and my mum can't believe the effects the sound of the ocean has had on his communication. Yes he may never work, and he may always have difficulty communicating and building relationships with others but for the first time in his life he has something that he can use to communicate more effectively.

However in reality I bought that subliminal for my university course work, so I know Shannon in your eyes I am some kind of apcode breaking pirate, but am I really the ultimate law breaking pirate for letting him use a product I had purchased to see if it could help him, is it really damaging you that your products get used in this manner, I mean with this as an example he could never be a customer, so its not a missed out sale due to piracy, you still got the sale. This is not a testimonial in any way of your product it's an example of how strict you are being. I mean technically its only one copy as its done over a remote connection, his computer is locked to only be a remote connection of mine as he is still new to computers it prevents him from causing errors that i'd have to travel 100 or so miles to sort. Two people are benefitting though, is it really always black and white? Does it have to be that if i dont agree with your views that you immediately think I'm out to steal from you or attack your business.

(Apologies for any grammar spelling issues it's 2am and I typed this on my phone)

(12-19-2015, 11:58 PM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 06:11 PM)Minititan Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 05:26 AM)Darkness Wrote: Stealing is stealing.

However what constitutes as stealing, if two people both invest in the product together which one is the thief, if a parent buys a video game for two children to share, who stole the video game. If I buy life tune up for a friend of mine and he plays it over stereo speakers in the same room he sleeps with his wife which one of them is the thief. In that scenario is it even fair for an apcode to exist. Does a couple who want to run the same sub in bed while they sleep have to both buy a copy to receive benefit. The method is unethical because you can't assume that the product is being bought for an individual, if it is and couples can't invest together why would they even consider this when they can turn to the millions of free subliminals on YouTube. Just what part of that is fair? What part of that is stealing? Apple lets me share my purchases with 4 other people, when I rent a digital movie to chill and watch with my girlfriend on a Friday night, I don't rent it twice. It's unfair. It's unethical. And like stated many times the apcode is developed from a scarcity mindset, it's all about pinching the consumer dry, good strategy for making some extra dough in the short term but frankly people will begin to lose trust, so I recently bought MLS 5G for myself and I have also been letting my 22 year old brother use it, (I know, by defintion my copy of MLS+Stop Piracy is technically not being used in accordance with the AP code) but I'll give you my reasoning as a consumer why I have done this

My brother was born with learning disabilities, he still lives with my mum he can't get a job because no one will hire him, I'm doing Japanese at university, he's fascinated with it I love taking the time out to teach him some when I can, he is good at recognising the kanji characters as they are more pictographic than our alphabet, it would take him about 15 minutes to read a short paragraph this size (5ish lines).

However, he can recognise the pictographs and can process it faster than he can English, he's been using MLS for about 4 weeks and yes we checked with his physician to ensure it was safe for him to run subliminal products and she could see no harm in trying, in fact he loves the sub, he has been studying and drawing the characters and it's amazing for me too see him be able to achieve this as there has always been a communication barrier as he struggles to write or text me, and I haven't lived with him for 13 years, but now my brother loves playing his MLS ocean surf track and can now actually text me in Japanese, his speech has also dramatically improved and my mum can't believe the effects the sound of the ocean has had on his communication. Yes he may never work, and he may always have difficulty communicating and building relationships with others but for the first time in his life he has something that he can use to communicate more effectively.

However in reality I bought that subliminal for my university course work, so I know Shannon in your eyes I am some kind of apcode breaking pirate, but am I really the ultimate law breaking pirate for letting him use a product I had purchased to see if it could help him, is it really damaging you that your products get used in this manner, I mean with this as an example he could never be a customer, so its not a missed out sale due to piracy, you still got the sale. This is not a testimonial in any way of your product it's an example of how strict you are being. I mean technically its only one copy as its done over a remote connection, his computer is locked to only be a remote connection of mine as he is still new to computers it prevents him from causing errors that i'd have to travel 100 or so miles to sort. Two people are benefitting though, is it really always black and white? Does it have to be that if i dont agree with your views that you immediately think I'm out to steal from you or attack your business.

(Apologies for any grammar spelling issues it's 2am and I typed this on my phone)

It's act itself. Robin Hood is a thief , no matter how you put, or how noble he was, it's still theft . Like a movie ticket , it use to say admit one. If someone else wanted to watch the movie, with you they needed their own ticket.
It's a security tag , so that work put in gets paid for.

(12-20-2015, 06:06 AM)Womanizer Wrote: According to the law even if someone else wants to share the song they purchased with you a complete stranger and you download it then it's piracy. A huge number of the population does download songs without purchasing.
https://riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php?content_selector=piracy_online_the_law

The main problem is they don't teach this in school , and also the world expects everyone to know this , how can you know without a teacher to teach.You have to find it on your own. So if someone buys a song uploads it and someone else downloads it , in the eyes of the law it's piracy. If I rent a dvd and watch it with my friend , then that's a form of piracy too since my wife didn't Co rent or pay for the rent process? Because fair value was only attained on one side, so that would be considered as piracy to some degree would it not? Either way in order to better educate the general public they need to have a half hour discussion on this in all middle schools. To educate all future customers have a separate thread where users can easily access and read about the AP code and piracy.

(12-20-2015, 01:20 AM)Minititan Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 11:58 PM)Darkness Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 06:11 PM)Minititan Wrote:

(12-19-2015, 05:26 AM)Darkness Wrote: Stealing is stealing.

However what constitutes as stealing, if two people both invest in the product together which one is the thief, if a parent buys a video game for two children to share, who stole the video game. If I buy life tune up for a friend of mine and he plays it over stereo speakers in the same room he sleeps with his wife which one of them is the thief. In that scenario is it even fair for an apcode to exist. Does a couple who want to run the same sub in bed while they sleep have to both buy a copy to receive benefit. The method is unethical because you can't assume that the product is being bought for an individual, if it is and couples can't invest together why would they even consider this when they can turn to the millions of free subliminals on YouTube. Just what part of that is fair? What part of that is stealing? Apple lets me share my purchases with 4 other people, when I rent a digital movie to chill and watch with my girlfriend on a Friday night, I don't rent it twice. It's unfair. It's unethical. And like stated many times the apcode is developed from a scarcity mindset, it's all about pinching the consumer dry, good strategy for making some extra dough in the short term but frankly people will begin to lose trust, so I recently bought MLS 5G for myself and I have also been letting my 22 year old brother use it, (I know, by defintion my copy of MLS+Stop Piracy is technically not being used in accordance with the AP code) but I'll give you my reasoning as a consumer why I have done this

My brother was born with learning disabilities, he still lives with my mum he can't get a job because no one will hire him, I'm doing Japanese at university, he's fascinated with it I love taking the time out to teach him some when I can, he is good at recognising the kanji characters as they are more pictographic than our alphabet, it would take him about 15 minutes to read a short paragraph this size (5ish lines).

However, he can recognise the pictographs and can process it faster than he can English, he's been using MLS for about 4 weeks and yes we checked with his physician to ensure it was safe for him to run subliminal products and she could see no harm in trying, in fact he loves the sub, he has been studying and drawing the characters and it's amazing for me too see him be able to achieve this as there has always been a communication barrier as he struggles to write or text me, and I haven't lived with him for 13 years, but now my brother loves playing his MLS ocean surf track and can now actually text me in Japanese, his speech has also dramatically improved and my mum can't believe the effects the sound of the ocean has had on his communication. Yes he may never work, and he may always have difficulty communicating and building relationships with others but for the first time in his life he has something that he can use to communicate more effectively.

However in reality I bought that subliminal for my university course work, so I know Shannon in your eyes I am some kind of apcode breaking pirate, but am I really the ultimate law breaking pirate for letting him use a product I had purchased to see if it could help him, is it really damaging you that your products get used in this manner, I mean with this as an example he could never be a customer, so its not a missed out sale due to piracy, you still got the sale. This is not a testimonial in any way of your product it's an example of how strict you are being. I mean technically its only one copy as its done over a remote connection, his computer is locked to only be a remote connection of mine as he is still new to computers it prevents him from causing errors that i'd have to travel 100 or so miles to sort. Two people are benefitting though, is it really always black and white? Does it have to be that if i dont agree with your views that you immediately think I'm out to steal from you or attack your business.

(Apologies for any grammar spelling issues it's 2am and I typed this on my phone)

It's act itself. Robin Hood is a thief , no matter how you put, or how noble he was, it's still theft . Like a movie ticket , it use to say admit one. If someone else wanted to watch the movie, with you they needed their own ticket.
It's a security tag , so that work put in gets paid for.

The whole overall point of this thread that an apcode on this kind of product is bad business practice. Yes anti piracy methods exist in many mediums. But the fact a game doesn't play can't compare to a subliminal product, the anti piracy in games has been known to mess up from time to time. If you pirated game Dev story you could do well for a while but then piracy would result in you going bankrupt in game. However that didn't just happen to those who pirated that game, if an install wasn't completely clean you would have this outcome in your game, one of the bad installs was caused by not having a pre installed Microsoft security update that was optional.

The point is without an easy to check apcode that's public, just like any part of the sub. Regardless of how well it's made, there's always the risk you disagree with certain aspects or resist others. There is every possibility that a paying user can trigger the code, because you don't know what you are being influenced by, just like mentioning if I am male has no guarantee that the sub Won't work on females. Don't believe me? if you are one of the people who purchased am5 just prior to am6 and ended up not running it, give your unused copy to your girlfriend and watch what happens, watch what she becomes after 6 months, I know it says it won't work and I can wager you it does and you may be surprised how well it works.

And this under EU and UK law isn't regarded as stealing or copyright, as the product remains in tact it's being used from a single closed environment, and is staying within between two brothers it's considered fair use, and the consumer laws in Europe are more on side with the customer than the supplier, hence why in the UK you wouldn't see a business person speak to a customer the way Shannon spoke above as not only is it bad customer interaction you can't speak to customers like that without the risk of getting sued heavily in a court system that doesn't give two craps about your company if you violate trades acts that defend the customer. Before you rant on about piracy yes the Pirates pretty much have influence over the EU however torrent sites are inaccessible in the U.K. And many European countries without using a vpn from hosted in America or canada

So even if it's okay in America to speak down to your customers and even if my example is seen by some as theft, as I am not distributing the product making physical copies etc, it's not technically piracy in all areas of the world an apcode should reflect that, and for these products to be sold in the uk it should be advertised in the product description that these products themselves that they contain scripting for anti piracy in general not just on the sites terms and conditions. As they contain something that is subliminal that may not sit well with all customers. Vagueness can get you into a whole lot of trouble. If I was to die all my copies of img subs on my computer would then become my brothers under the consumer act he has the right to use these with no punishable aspect of fear mongeing.

Same if I purchased these from a joint credit account it becomes both our property, 50% effectiveness is unfair as both parties have a right to use it, I don't know how that works in America but here both parties would have the right to each view that copy as their own paid copy, and either of them would have the right to request refund through the credit card company, that's why we have credit cards here not for extra cash flow we are advised to make all purchases online with credit cards because it's easier to get your money back if something goes wrong. Two people with a joint account each having their copy on their own iPods is not piracy and it's not stealing and stopping them from having full success with your product is unfair on the customer.