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Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Printable Version +- Subliminal Talk (https://subliminal-talk.com) +-- Forum: Other Topics (https://subliminal-talk.com/Forum-Other-Topics) +--- Forum: The Chatter Box (https://subliminal-talk.com/Forum-The-Chatter-Box) +--- Thread: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? (/Thread-Is-Lust-Immoral-A-Distraction) Pages:
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Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Ampersnd - 12-06-2025 This is a post meant as a continuation to my DMSI journal: https://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-Bounce-off-Me-and-Stick-to-You-DMSI-v5-1-with-DRS?pid=270530#pid270530 In the last couple of days, I've felt an inversion of my attitudes toward casual sex and sexualizing women. Even if this is deep resistance to DMSI, I want to explore these thoughts in case they evaporate. I'm wondering as to whether the "goal" - and even the positive mental posture - toward frivolous sex with women that I don't romantically care for is both corrupting to society (and those women) and corrosive to my own spirit and long-term development. Even without the spiritual overtures, if one were to sex up dozens - even hundreds - of women, with all of the neurochemical implications, and send them back into society, how much is that dis-equilibrating them, and by implication their future choices, relationships, and downstream consequences? It's not lost on me that I was raised Catholic - an upbringing which I've rejected and mocked as a teenager and through most of my 20s - and that there is an imposition involved from this faith; one which I'm slowly learning about now that I've entered my 30s. I've felt a challenge to my current ways, where I lack the discipline to achieve my goals and dreams. To the point that I might still have child-like attitudes toward the world, and I just need to grow up and handle greater levels of responsibility, and to become of service to others. Furthermore, I've felt an inner shift to challenge whether my long-standing goals and dreams have existed to obtain vainglory (pride), to get back at people or to dangle my attainments over them (wrath), or to be able to take a massive step back from life's responsibilities and to simply enjoy life (sloth/gluttony). These are valuable questions, even if asked by a secular person. And for large portions of my life, lust: I've fixated on women, sex, pussy, my ability to get these things, the implications of not getting these things during droughts, my juggling of a few girls when that was available to me, or my pathologizing of women when they wouldn't "give" anything to me, even when they cut a basic conversation short. Since a couple of years ago, my desire to put up with all of these frustrations has been at a minimal, and this is likely accompanied with a 5-10% lower libido, which makes a surprising difference. There's a YouTube creator called 'Father Moses' - an Orthodox Christian - who makes a rather secular case related to the ideas here, and he is applying a challenge to young men in a grounded, masculine way. I feel called out, and I feel the pull to correct these tendencies. I've seen another faith-based creator break down the philosophy of Andrew Tate and compared it to Aristotelian ethics; it weaved in Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine, and it had surprisingly cogent views on lust, pride, sloth, much more nuanced than the other normally-commercialized "7 Deadly Sins". The Christian faith is fully aware of the calls of the Body, and it is distinguished from the spiritual calling, one which has you walking a "narrow path", constantly warding off temptations in many forms. On the other hand, I've been well aware of a YouTube creator and dating coach named 'John Anthony Lifestyle', who touts a "body count" of 2000 women. He has a dating system where he treats the process of meet-to-bed like a production line, with text scripts and in-person processes. He claims that women on his rotation, along with new women, go to his apartment throughout the day, and he fucks them, later sending them on their way because he has a "business call" to attend to. I have a couple of his courses. It's not predatory, per se, since plenty of women love sex, and a fraction of them don't mind keeping it casual. However, at scale, he expresses a less-than-transparent attitude of not revealing that he's sleeping around with all these other women, and not discussing where the relationship is going. Plenty of women might continue to see him with the hidden hope of turning things around, but they're pursuing a false hope. All of his efforts are built on the central premise of making his pee-pee feel good; of rubbing your dick in some strange (hot) woman's pussy until you cum in it. It's scratching a primal itch, compulsively, with no thought to the long-term implications, his purpose in life, or culminating his life toward any lofty goal. And since he's gotten very good at scratching this itch, he's not in the position of needing to question his motives. However, if all of these chaste attitudes - and an overall narrow path - are predicated on the existence of a particular deity, and this deity isn't real/doesn't exist (more or less how I feel about it), this doesn't invalidate the existence of this narrow path. It simply means that there is less psychological fuel to pursue this path, given that there wouldn't be any Universal/Absolute accountability once you leave this world, and that awareness could definitely lax one's standards. And so, I'd like to hear your thoughts. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - 4Kingdoms - 12-06-2025 Psycheria https://www.youtube.com/@Psycheria/videos Attraction Through Stoicism https://www.youtube.com/@AttractionThroughStoicism/videos Why Women Over 40 Suddenly Want Average Men: It's Not What You Think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdqUwVsUNw In my opinion, these websites nail the attitudes of today’s women. My introduction to “pick up” was David DeAngelo known for the statement. “Attraction is not a choice.” Instead of asking what women want, he asked what do women respond to? Growing up as a Catholic, it was hammered into my mind that there is “only one” woman for you. “Save your virginity for marriage.” Very damaging beliefs. My younger Uncle married a woman with 3 kids from 3 different men and adopted them because he “believed” nobody else would like him. He is still married to the same woman, and female coworkers constantly flirt and sit on his lap. He said, “If I knew this was going to happen, I would’ve never gotten married.” I didn’t wait for marriage to lose my v-card. Neighborhood girls my age would tell me they started having sex and ask if I wanted to have fun. I figured since girls/women ask me… maybe I should ask them. A coworker joined me for lunch at work and said… Her: You finally got what you wanted. Me: I got what I wanted? Her: Remember, you asked me to have lunch with you. (my thoughts, I wanted to have lunch outside of work with you) Me: I should have been more specific. I wanted to have sex with you. A few days later, on our days off, she had sex with me. Doesn’t work all the time. I lost a few friendships by asking that. But I think I got more sex because I asked. @Ampersnd What is your endgame? A friend with benefits? A loyal girlfriend? Arm candy to be seen with? A wife who wants children? You can have one, or you can have it all. Women are open-minded; you won’t know until you ask. She might want the same thing you want, or she might give a list of demands and turn you off completely. I saw a movie about a guy and a girl. She got married to someone else. Him: Why didn't you marry me? Her: You never asked. Scheduling has always been an issue for me to go on a date or to hook up. I met a guy from work, who introduced me to his wife and 3 kids. The next day at work, I asked... Me: When did you have time to get married and have children? Him: Remember all the holidays/overtime you volunteered? Me: Yes. Him: I was calling in sick and going on dates with different women until I met my wife. I always wanted to have 3 kids. Final story. When I was in my “Dirty 30’s” an older male told me… ”Get all the pussy you can because someday you’ll stop getting erections.” We are spiritual beings, here to have human experiences. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Ampersnd - 12-06-2025 Thank you for the reply, but it has not escaped my notice that you haven't engaged with the core of my question. Your reply is full of aphorisms and personal experiences which, although it's not wrong to do so, brushes my entire philosophical question to the side - disregards it as a premise entirely - before you've begun to tell me about all of the fucking you managed to do. It verges on disrespect. Haven't watched your links yet, but I'm well aware of the red pill lens of women, and I'm in agreement that this attitude is pervasive, but who the fuck cares what individual women do or feel in the light of my question? I realize that we receive social media, which can influence or pervert our ethical attitudes about life. Right now, I'm asking aloud what a healthy engagement with sex looks like; why would I care that being bold will get me more pussy? I'm being curt, but only because you are fundamentally not "getting" my question. If you did, you wouldn't be bringing up all of the fun sexy adventures you've had. I've had my fun sexy adventures, too; what I'm asking is: what are the long-term ramifications? And, are they worthwhile, to me and to my society? RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - 4Kingdoms - 12-06-2025 (12-06-2025, 02:48 PM)Ampersnd Wrote: Thank you for the reply, but it has not escaped my notice that you haven't engaged with the core of my question. I meant no disrespect. I apologize for not "getting" your question. I'm sorry my response didn't have any value for you. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Ampersnd - 12-06-2025 This wasn't to shut down or stifle your responses. If you take any of the questions I've written in my initial post, or my reply, and address them squarely, that's plenty of value for me. I was (rather harshly) pointing out a major disconnect between post and reply. Hope I didn't sting you too badly. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - 4Kingdoms - 12-06-2025 (12-06-2025, 03:11 PM)Ampersnd Wrote: This wasn't to shut down or stifle your responses.No, I wasn't stung. My family hates it when I say this, but I feel my brain/mind hasn't been the same since my cardiac arrest. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how I feel. I'm glad you made it simpler for me to comprehend. I don't know the future. So the long-term ramifications is for history to tell. The answers I'm providing are from "The Spirits' Book" (Modern English Version) by Alan L. Chapman Disclaimer: The answers are not my words; they are from the book. Ampersnd Wrote:What I'm asking is: what are the long-term ramifications? And, are they worthwhile to me and to my society?Worthwhile to you and your society? Yes. Everyone has a role in helping humanity grow by supporting and learning from each other. No one has every skill or ability. We rely on each other to develop and succeed. Ampersnd Wrote:I'm wondering as to whether the "goal" - and even the positive mental posture - toward frivolous sex with women that I don't romantically care for is both corrupting to society (and those women) and corrosive to my own spirit and long-term development.Casual Relationships between the sexes are part of a more primitive stage of human development. Conversely, marriage is a step forward, helping to create a more advanced connected society. It fosters mutual support, and solidarity can be found in different forms across all cultures. Eliminating marriage would be a step backward, taking humanity to an earlier stage, even below some animals that form stable, lasting bonds. Ampersnd Wrote:I've felt a challenge to my current ways, where I lack the discipline to achieve my goals and dreams. To the point that I might still have child-like attitudes toward the world, and I just need to grow up and handle greater levels of responsibility, and to become of service to others.Work/service has two purposes for humans: caring for the body and developing the mind. Growing the mind is as important as meeting physical needs because it helps humans rise above basic survival. Work/service includes both physical and spiritual efforts. Any activity that serves a useful purpose is considered work. A person with plentiful resources has a greater responsibility to help others grow, which is also a form of work/service. Ampersnd Wrote:Furthermore, I've felt an inner shift to challenge whether my long-standing goals and dreams have existed to obtain vainglory (pride), to get back at people or to dangle my attainments over them (wrath), or to be able to take a massive step back from life's responsibilities and to simply enjoy life (sloth/gluttony). These are valuable questions, even if asked by a secular person.In life, we have chances to improve, make better choices, and move forward on the path toward becoming wiser and better. Our goal is to keep growing until we reach spiritual perfection. Ampersnd Wrote:It had surprisingly cogent views on lust, pride, sloth, much more nuanced than the other normally-commercialized "7 Deadly Sins". / YouTube creator and dating coach named 'John Anthony Lifestyle', who touts a "body count" of 2000 women. / However, if all of these chaste attitudes - and an overall narrow path - are predicated on the existence of a particular deity, and this deity isn't real/doesn't exist (more or less how I feel about it), this doesn't invalidate the existence of this narrow path. It simply means that there is less psychological fuel to pursue this path, given that there wouldn't be any Universal/Absolute accountability once you leave this world, and that awareness could definitely lax one's standards.Free will - every person has the freedom to choose their own path. These freedoms enable individuals to earn karma for their own choices and actions. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Ampersnd - 12-06-2025 I appreciate you taking the time to write out your response. And I'm sorry to hear about your incident, and the ensuing consequences. Perhaps I wouldn't need to chart out the effects of promiscuity out 50-100 years. How about only 5 years? Where you've readapted most aspects of your life to optimize for the most sex with the most women. There are near-immediate tradeoffs when making this choice; where to live, how intensely you work and study, your relation to your family; your service to others. When you're swiping or cold-approaching, you're tapping into the variable-response loop that creates a ton of dopamine, and risks making other aspects of your life duller in comparison. Then, there's the risk of eroding your own sense of "brotherhood", though we're talking about women. Women get categorized by whether you'd like to fuck them, and you act impulsively and desperately towards those who fit the bill, while you ignore those who don't. Women become a means of titillating oneself; a source of friction for your dick; they become something that you consume, and later discard when they start showing inconvenient feelings. A woman walks into the room, and you scan each part of her body to see if it's fuckable enough. I have a friend - who is supposedly godly - that also has three children by two baby mamas; granted, one of the pregnancies was by twins. But these pregnancies occurred because he loved to fuck, and to do it recklessly (no condom, etc.) The women played their part later on - don't get me wrong (and I was present through the second breakup, so I'm not ignorant to women's nature) - but their relationship was founded on the promiscuity. Gosh, listen to me; a secular atheist who is speaking like a moralist Catholic. Anyways.. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - GreekGod22 - 12-07-2025 Women’s promiscuity will continue, whether you and me stop engaging in casual sex. I’ve been with women who cheated on their boyfriends with me. And I’m at peace with it. It was their choice. If they hadn’t done it with me, they would have done it with another man. “She don’t wanna be saved, don’t save her” What I do find it alarming in this day and age is how many women are able to completely emotionally detach and treat sex like a sport, like a casual activity, without feeling any kind of need for bonding or aftercare, or any emotional attachment. Previously, this was mostly a male characteristic. Now women are behaving this way too. Many well developed women, emotionally and mentally, that gave themselves to me and I wouldn’t hear from them again. Treating sex like pure fun, willing to go raw, and then go home without any form of closure, or aftercare. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Baya - 12-07-2025 (12-07-2025, 07:28 AM)GreekGod22 Wrote: Women’s promiscuity will continue, whether you and me stop engaging in casual sex. In my opinion there is more to it and what i quote below is pretty much what i experience and believe even though its not me who wrote this: "Sex no matter what is never casual. There's too much exchange that happens, too much baggage goes into your energy and Spirit. You suddenly find yourself for weeks dealing with layers that while they reference things in your life it's the layers of Petunia you just slept with and Chad, John, Tyrone, Sam, Steven, and on and on. Now reference that the average recently of a 20-25 year old now is 50-100 bodies. It's an iffy topic that takes a high level of awareness of seeing all the consequences but as someone that was a womanizer before with quite a history, here's how I see it now: My sexual energy is my fountain of creating cool shit so I protect it. A nut is not worth weeks of working through things for days or weeks to get back to normal. I can only have it if there's a level of love involved. The possibility of this said love building is a mythological creature. " RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Ampersnd - 12-07-2025 Thank you both for your responses. I think that it's a blessing that my sexual desires have been less urgent and desperate now that I'm firmly in my thirties (at 33); I do recall how it felt - especially as a teenager and early twenties - when I was sexually frustrated and pent-up. At the time, it was also tied into a desire to relate to the feminine, a pride and ego obtained from bedding women, a shame in not "keeping up" with the perceived sexual success of my friends, in feeling sexually impotent without this success, a constant absorbing of music and media that's highly sexual, and no real guidance toward a narrow path, not ever having the value of abstaining laid out for me. Now, there's less to prove, and therefore less of an obvious place to channel my sexual urges; I don't feel any "need" to flag down a bunch of random women, and talk enough just to fuck them for the sake of doing it. I've done that, and it's fun, but not as fulfilling as one might think. There is an implicit - though hidden question - underlying my main post; it is: should we be retreating from the pursuit of frivolous earthly pleasures in pursuit of a spiritually-rich life? This question might not mean much, especially when that question doesn't resonate for you, or you want to explore the world for all it's got. Or, you're just a horny bastard and want to fuck a lot without wanting to give it much more thought beyond that. All of it is valid, but these are choices which have their downstream effects. I gave some crap to 4Kingdoms when he brought up women's behavior to my question about a personal choice; while writing the post, I really didn't care how women behaved, since it's not pertinent to the question. But it is fair to say that women's choices create an environment which dictate the options that men have available to us. As an extreme example, if 50% of them chose become single mothers - as in, literally get themselves impregnated without wanting the father to be present or involved - and 90% of them chose to become obese, then men will have that population of women to choose from. If men value childlessness and thinness, then this creates a high demand on a type of woman who is in low supply, giving them artificial value when all they've really done is the bare minimum. Also, women are horny, and they want to have sex. The main religious systems have the effect of constraining women's sexuality, which would - if not constrained - advantage them greatly in a one-on-one contest between men and women. Even in cultures that put adulterers to death - and seems to be much more acutely aware of female adulterers - women will still take the risk because their pussy told them to. (The numbers on cheating are fairly equal between men and women until the age of 50, at which point men are out of control; I'd almost view it as a cultural difference, since a man born in 1970-1975 will likely have a different view from a man born in 2000.) But then again, most traditional religions don't give a fuck about what women's view of society ought to be. This includes the Buddhist religion that a lot of women default to when wanting to escape Abrahamic patriarchal systems. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Shannon - 12-07-2025 Now I begin to realize why people like you are having so much difficulty with DMSI. Apparently, it triggers a whole avalanche of introspection and contemplations. I'm guessing that ultimately, this all stems from the belief that maybe it will get you thrown into a burning lake for eternity? That wasn't quite clear from reading the thread. What is clear is that you're spending a huge amount of time, effort and thought on something that is really very simple. If you want the results of what DMSI is trying to accomplish, the use it; otherwise, don't. I'm not sure I will ever be able to overcome the issues DMSI has if they are rooted in religious upbringing and beliefs based in guilt, shame and fear that are introduced that early in life specifically in an effort to control and manipulate you for the rest of your life. If this turns out to be the reason underlying the majority of people's issues with DMSI, then I'm not sure I have the energy left to even try to overcome that as an issue, given how long and hard I have tried already, only to end up here. I don't mean to be crass, but it looks to me like you're spending an awful lot of time and energy on metacognitive contemplations that really don't matter... getting caught up in the what if, instead of trying to achieve the goal of the program. To me, it very much looks like a light switch: if you want it, use it; if not, then use something else. And if you're still laboring under the guilt/shame/fear of the teachings of a religion that is designed (very effectively, I might add) to control you by using those as tools, then you're predictably not going to get far with something you're apparently, at some level, interpreting as being a "deadly sin" that will get you thrown into eternal punishment. Nobody who believes that to be the case is ever going to execute the script of DMSI, likely no matter what I do to improve it. The only solution is to replace those beliefs with positive beliefs that allow for you to decide what to do based on something other than guilt, shame and fear. And those religions that use those as tools of control know that, and know how difficult it is to remove that programming and replace it with something that isn't negative. It should be interesting to hear your thoughts on this. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Zeroxmachina - 12-07-2025 The short answer...Of course lust is a distraction. Getting laid as a general goal will never be something that indicates a man is aligned with his greater purpose. However, at least in my experience, the universe can and will use different means to put you in contact with the people and situations you need to fulfill the desires your soul had in mind, and it is not above using lust. You may meet the love of your life, or someone who will be important to you, simply because that's the way it was supposed to happen through a hook-up. Trying to think yourself out of it is relatively pointless, just do what it is you feel. You'll know when it's time to move onto something else. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - Ampersnd - 12-07-2025 (12-07-2025, 07:30 PM)Shannon Wrote: Now I begin to realize why people like you are having so much difficulty with DMSI. Apparently, it triggers a whole avalanche of introspection and contemplations. I'm guessing that ultimately, this all stems from the belief that maybe it will get you thrown into a burning lake for eternity? That wasn't quite clear from reading the thread. What is clear is that you're spending a huge amount of time, effort and thought on something that is really very simple. If you want the results of what DMSI is trying to accomplish, the use it; otherwise, don't. I appreciate your reflection, Shannon; and though I see where you are coming from (and it would make sense if I had had an orthodox or strict Catholic upbringing), your conclusion is built on an assumption that I was perhaps harassed about heaven/hell, or received abstinence-only education founded on shame and guilt, or otherwise received very harsh instructions about sex tied to punishment. These questions have only popped up in my head the last couple of days, in this sincere form. I grew up Catholic, sure, but I had received none of that on-the-nose instruction about hell, or going there for breaking the rules. In fact, I began atheism, and followed the Richard Dawkins/Sam Harris/Christopher Hitchens/ThunderF00t content, starting at age 14 or 15, and have held onto a loosely-spiritual materialism until the last month or so. If these hard-set attitudes (based on your comment above) were formed only because my parents warned me - in their own spirit of personal shame - to not mess around with girls (without the religious connotation), then frankly I think that 6G should handle it fine. That's where the confusion comes from. I will add that all four stages of UMS 6G had a similar effect on me; not very much had happened. It might be something to do with my psychological profile and how it responds to your builds. RE: Is Lust Immoral / A Distraction? - ReconGunner - 12-08-2025 (12-07-2025, 08:48 PM)Ampersnd Wrote: I will add that all four stages of UMS 6G had a similar effect on me; not very much had happened. It might be something to do with my psychological profile and how it responds to your builds. I can't speak to DMSI, X4A, etc. as I have not used any of them. Being happily married, I don't have a use case for them. SARM, on the other hand... For UMS 6G, I'm almost finished with Stage 2 of my second run through. UMS does a lot of internal work, and I see more and more how much of that I've needed. I fully intend to do four consecutive run throughs unless something external gives sooner and I achieve my general UMS goals. I'm a sample size of 1, obviously; it looks like some of us need more internal work of whatever kind before external effects will occur. And 6G in particular looks like it is good for that work relative to whatever the title's overall goals are. To the original question: If someone chooses to use DMSI, X4A, etc., that is a choice to make pursuing sex their primary goal. (Obviously, if they are a tester, the primary goal is to test the title.) Making the pursuit of sex your primary goal means that something else cannot be your primary goal. In that way it will always be a distraction from other goals. You can have a healthy sex life while pursuing other goals. Many successful men report that focusing on the pursuit of a different primary goal than sex - your "mission", whatever you choose it to be - is an attractor to women who learn that about you. As to the morality question, it depends on what code or standard of morality you believe to be definitive for you. Most religions place restrictions on sexual morality. If you do not consider any of them to be applicable to you or binding on you, then whatever code you choose to hold to will determine the answer. Only you (specific and generic) can address that; it's best discussed with others who hold to the same moral code. And there's likely enough variety in that among the folks here that all you are likely to get is different answers from the perspective of each person's moral standard. Summary: decide what your goals are and use the corresponding title for your goals, one main goal at a time. Questions of morality are specific to whatever moral code you hold to. |