HOY-Because I HAD to try it...

[ncbeareatingman]

Bravo for perseverance and stick to it-ness !! Theres a lot moe to these sub's going on 'underneth' the hood.

[Shannon]

Wrinkles and hair color/thickness are going to be slow changes because of what needs to be done. Be patient with those.

Thank you for going back to the directions.

[rono]

Hi All, (9/6/22)

In the middle of our third cycle since beginning to listen on the cell phone.
Don't like doing it that way, cause it's a pain to hook up the cell phone on my night stand, put it in airplane mode, etc. but seems to be working ok.

Some things to report:

• We're both doing fine in general.
  
• My weight has stabilized at 5 lbs lower than what it had been for months before the sub. My wife's weight dropped a few pounds, then after a couple weeks it went back to her previous 'normal'. I'm trying to get the muscle weight back that I have lost and it seems to be going ok, though slowly (normal for someone my age).
  
• In general, our sleep has been better, though that is difficult to quantify. Just more consistent deep and rem sleep for both of us.
  
• in the last week have had a couple of 'morning glories' but not extremely pronounced, yet, I hope.... would like to get back to where I was on this when I was younger and/or when I was on TRT.
  
• Tomorrow I'm getting my hormone panels done, seems like a month in to this will be a good time to give it a try. 
  
• I have had bouts of 'crankiness' where I feel the estrogen dominance and really have to catch myself to avoid becoming over-reactive and/or complainy. This has been on and off for several weeks now, BUT seems to be a little less frequent. Night sweats are slightly diminished, though this is hard to tell during the heatwave we have had for the last 10 days or so.
  

That's all I can think of right now.

Question for @Shannon: I'm getting hormone labs done. They are going to be pretty thorough. Among the tests requested:

• prolactin
  
• Free and total T
  
• DHEA
  
• Estradiol
  
• FSH/LH
  
• GH (hopefully)
  

What feedback do you have on this? I assume you're interested in the results, what do you expect to see?
Also, how long till the HOY effects peak, more or less?

Cheers!
RonO

[Shannon]

Hi All, (9/6/22)

In the middle of our third cycle since beginning to listen on the cell phone.
Don't like doing it that way, cause it's a pain to hook up the cell phone on my night stand, put it in airplane mode, etc. but seems to be working ok.

Some things to report:

• We're both doing fine in general.
  
• My weight has stabilized at 5 lbs lower than what it had been for months before the sub. My wife's weight dropped a few pounds, then after a couple weeks it went back to her previous 'normal'. I'm trying to get the muscle weight back that I have lost and it seems to be going ok, though slowly (normal for someone my age).
  
• In general, our sleep has been better, though that is difficult to quantify. Just more consistent deep and rem sleep for both of us.
  
• in the last week have had a couple of 'morning glories' but not extremely pronounced, yet, I hope.... would like to get back to where I was on this when I was younger and/or when I was on TRT.
  
• Tomorrow I'm getting my hormone panels done, seems like a month in to this will be a good time to give it a try. 
  
• I have had bouts of 'crankiness' where I feel the estrogen dominance and really have to catch myself to avoid becoming over-reactive and/or complainy. This has been on and off for several weeks now, BUT seems to be a little less frequent. Night sweats are slightly diminished, though this is hard to tell during the heatwave we have had for the last 10 days or so.
  

That's all I can think of right now.

Question for @Shannon: I'm getting hormone labs done. They are going to be pretty thorough. Among the tests requested:

• prolactin
  
• Free and total T
  
• DHEA
  
• Estradiol
  
• FSH/LH
  
• GH (hopefully)
  

What feedback do you have on this? I assume you're interested in the results, what do you expect to see?
Also, how long till the HOY effects peak, more or less?

Cheers!
RonO

I would like to know how your current results compare to previous results on HRT and without HRT.  I really have no expectations because each person is going to be different, but I would presume your hormone levels should be closer to what they were when you were significantly younger.

Peak should be between 2 weeks and 3 months, but I don't know specifically how long it takes because again, each person is different.

[rono]

Hi All, (9/6/22)

In the middle of our third cycle since beginning to listen on the cell phone.
Don't like doing it that way, cause it's a pain to hook up the cell phone on my night stand, put it in airplane mode, etc. but seems to be working ok.

Some things to report:

• We're both doing fine in general.
  
• My weight has stabilized at 5 lbs lower than what it had been for months before the sub. My wife's weight dropped a few pounds, then after a couple weeks it went back to her previous 'normal'. I'm trying to get the muscle weight back that I have lost and it seems to be going ok, though slowly (normal for someone my age).
  
• In general, our sleep has been better, though that is difficult to quantify. Just more consistent deep and rem sleep for both of us.
  
• in the last week have had a couple of 'morning glories' but not extremely pronounced, yet, I hope.... would like to get back to where I was on this when I was younger and/or when I was on TRT.
  
• Tomorrow I'm getting my hormone panels done, seems like a month in to this will be a good time to give it a try. 
  
• I have had bouts of 'crankiness' where I feel the estrogen dominance and really have to catch myself to avoid becoming over-reactive and/or complainy. This has been on and off for several weeks now, BUT seems to be a little less frequent. Night sweats are slightly diminished, though this is hard to tell during the heatwave we have had for the last 10 days or so.
  

That's all I can think of right now.

Question for @Shannon: I'm getting hormone labs done. They are going to be pretty thorough. Among the tests requested:

• prolactin
  
• Free and total T
  
• DHEA
  
• Estradiol
  
• FSH/LH
  
• GH (hopefully)
  

What feedback do you have on this? I assume you're interested in the results, what do you expect to see?
Also, how long till the HOY effects peak, more or less?

Cheers!
RonO

I would like to know how your current results compare to previous results on HRT and without HRT.  I really have no expectations because each person is going to be different, but I would presume your hormone levels should be closer to what they were when you were significantly younger.

Peak should be between 2 weeks and 3 months, but I don't know specifically how long it takes because again, each person is different.

Hi @Shannon: 
I've now received my results, but I'm still processing the comparisons.
Initially, it is not looking that great. All the key numbers appear to be substantially less than they were before while I was on TRT. Tomorrow they should release the results electronically so I can do an over time comparison. I'll supply key factors at that point.
I'm feeling 'ok' but have low libido, more irritability that I have to stay on top of, trouble focusing/concentrating (but not as bad as before the subliminal curiously--might be that I am now recovered from long covid), muscle mass, physical stamina and strength are not recovering, hair seems to be thinning. BUT I am only a month and half into the sub. I've followed the 5 days, 4 loops/day, 1 day off, for a few cycles now. During that time I've been listening on my iphone 6s at 12 clicks using the flac version. I will say it has a definite effect that I feel, but I'm now concerned that the weight loss is because of the drop in T and loss of muscle mass, rather than fat. Sigh.
Will post more extensively over the next couple days. Hopefully, we'll find some good news among the stats. Or maybe we'll deem our picture as premature. 
I REALLY want this to work! I have very much enjoyed the freedom of not needing to give myself injections 4+x per week. So if you have any tips that you've come up with -- let me know!
Cheers!
Ron

[RTBoss]

With a background in exercise science and physiology (by no means an MD), I can only surmise that HRT/TRT shut down your natural production of testosterone (which decreases with age after 30 for men). Stopping HRT leaves your HPTA in the dirt, and using instructions to start it back up would, I'd think, take more time than someone who never used HRT.

This may or may not be the case, but it's a possible scenario.

[rono]

With a background in exercise science and physiology (by no means an MD), I can only surmise that HRT/TRT shut down your natural production of testosterone (which decreases with age after 30 for men).  Stopping HRT leaves your HPTA in the dirt, and using instructions to start it back up would, I'd think, take more time than someone who never used HRT.

This may or may not be the case, but it's a possible scenario.

Of course, that is a possibility. I am asking Shannon to see if he thinks that's it or if it is something else or if there is a tweak we can toss in there...

Thanks,
RonO

[Shannon]

With a background in exercise science and physiology (by no means an MD), I can only surmise that HRT/TRT shut down your natural production of testosterone (which decreases with age after 30 for men).  Stopping HRT leaves your HPTA in the dirt, and using instructions to start it back up would, I'd think, take more time than someone who never used HRT.

This may or may not be the case, but it's a possible scenario.

Of course, that is a possibility. I am asking Shannon to see if he thinks that's it or if it is something else or if there is a tweak we can toss in there...

Thanks,
RonO

What RTB said is a very good point, although I do not have proof one way or the other.  But that possibility, coupled with what seems to be some sort of psychological trauma associated with hormones (as per your revelations) which may be causing your subconscious to resist or even reverse your desired results, is also a possibility to consider.

Per a doctor I had dealings with during the care of my mother at the end of her life while her emphysema was at max and her oxygen levels required artificial oxygen support, your body will respond to high levels of oxygen in the blood by shutting down the breathing reflex to lower the oxygen levels.  That, as it was explained to me, was why they could not simply continue to add more and more oxygen volume as her lungs deteriorated and gave out.  It would seem that per RTB's statement, that the body will stop producing Testosterone if you already have enough, or in the case of TRT, perhaps an artificially high amount.

There are the following possibilities we could explore from this point:

1) Change nothing, and see if the levels change over time.  If the settings are correct and your body needs to start producing hormones naturally again, this is what you will do best with.
2) Adjust the volume.
3) Slowly wean you off of TRT in hopes that your body will pick up the slack as you do so.  I'm not exactly a fan of this idea, since it's mixing hormone triggers and therapies, and because I don't personally have high hopes that your body would actually do that.
4) Stop using the sub, and go back to HRT.

Based on what I currently know, my money is on Option #2.  This latest gen of tech seems to be so powerful that we need to significantly lower the volume from what was expected.  So let's have you adjust the volume only, and change it to 6 on your cell phone, from where it is now, and continue. This will allow us to communicate with a deeper part of your subconscious and do so more gently, which I believe will allow you to get much better results.

[rono]

Hi All, (9/15/2022),

I've been running the HOY now since the July 27. 
I've been running HOY from my iPhone 6s at 12 clicks for 4 loops / night 5 nights on 1 night off for 4 cycles at this point.
When I had the blood drawn for the following tests on Sept 7, I was at 4 loops per the refined instructions from Shannon. 
So overall been listening for 1.5 months. I will put the previous results followed by the current results.
The previous results were from tests taken at the end of March 2022. The previous several tests were more or less similar.

• Testosterone, Free -- 141.7, now 30.9 pg/ml (below normal range) -- this is the most important one
  
• Testosterone, Total -- 1121, now 449 ng/dl (from high to low normal) -- this one is also key
  
• DHT -- 279 ng/dL, now 65 ng/dL (this is the most masculinizing form of T)
  
• Estradiol -- dropped substantially, but that is to be expected since there is so little T to aromatize)
  
• SHBG -- 61 now 68 nmol/L (when this is high, and mine tends to run high, it keeps the T out of play)
  
• FSH -- 1.3, now 2.7 (this is a small improvement, but I'm still in low range)
  
• LH -- appears to be up a little (I have noticed that my testicles are no longer shrinking, so that's good)
  
• Prolactin -- unchanged
  
• Total cholesterol went up, but triglycerides went down, cholesterol ratio dropped
  
• Thyroid hormones -- approximately the same, though T3 dropped noticeably
  

So that's the damage. I am running at about 50% of the T where I feel my best in terms of libido, sexual performance and exercise/muscle building. 

Observations:

• My hair is definitely thinning, I'm not vain, but it's becoming a problem because even a tiny bit of sweat messes it up now, so I don't look as 'clean cut' as before, more 'bed head' much of the time.
  
• Fewer night sweats.
  
• My balls had begun to shrink after the first couple of weeks, but changing the protocol per Shannon seems to have improved that. I think it was the reduced break periods, though, because that is when they began to respond.
  
• Feeling more fatigued and less motivated to exercise than earlier in the sub use (for the last two weeks)
  
• Muscles have measurably shrunk since going on the sub, I've lost weight (about 6 lbs) but NOT belly fat which has remained consistent.
  
• My diet is essentially unchanged, I've been trying to prioritize sleep because of the fatigue, my exercise program has been consistent for at least the last 2 months.
  
• I get more cranky, easily offended, anxious, etc. but at the same time I am doing a little better at managing these-- though the latter could be attributed to changes in my spiritual disciplines.
  
• Libido-wise-- this is the most frustrating. I used to be interested in sex at all times and often ready to go. Now, when date night is coming up, I have to psych myself up, make sure I'm relaxed, etc. AND I depend on my wife to do her magic to get me interested. Frankly, I've gone from loving to see her naked as often as possible to basically being indifferent, though I don't tell her that, I just act interested though I'm not feeling the interest really.
  
• My mental clarity and motivation surged for a while but have dropped back down but not as low as they had been. Maybe the sub is better at manipulating neurotransmitters than hormones?
  
• I had hoped to see at least a reasonable level of Free T... but no such luck, I'm back to my pre-TRT levels (12/2016 I was at 462 and last week I was at 449-- essentially the same)
  
  
  

So. @Shannon: 
What do you suggest? Should I try more loops? Higher volume? I did notice I've been using 12 clicks when you said I should use 13, don't know how I messed that up, but my phone is only 2.5 ft from my head. I know that if I listen to something that is 3 ft away vs 6 ft away the sound is significantly diminished (by perception), but I don't know how this affects higher frequencies (which I understand carry better, but are perhaps more directional). It seems unlikely that a one-click increase in sound could make a huge difference, but I'll put it up to 13 at this point.

I'm still functional but kind of at a loss. How long do you recommend I keep the experiment going, Shannon? Is it likely we'll see further improvement if we persist? Should I add loops?

Hoping we can get this experiment on track!

Cheers!
RonO

[Shannon]

I answered your questions mostly in the post above that last one you made. I guess you did not see it.

A boost and then a drop suggests that the program was being executed for a time, and then that stopped.

Not doing exactly the volume I suggest, even by accident, can have negative impacts.

At this point, we have the possibility that HRT damages the body's ability to produce hormones, at least for a time; or, some part of you is not cooperating to execute fully, which is suggested by a boost and then drop; or, you're not using the right settings. Could be several things, really.

Let's use the same settings you're currently using, with a change in volume to 6 out of 16 on your cell phone.

You may be confused where I say above that 5.9G seems to be so powerful that we have to lower the volume, especially given these results. The reason for that is that the more powerful the programs get, the easier it is to overshoot the mark for settings. Volume plays a big part in that, and it is also largely responsible for what parts and levels of the subconscious we are communicating most directly with. As the programs increase in power, we have to approach more and more gently to achieve the desired result, or maybe we need to communicate with different levels. Whatever the case, switch to 6 out of 16 and run it for another month, month and a half to see how it compares. From the experiments I have been doing with 5.9G I believe this will have a significant impact on achieving the goals better.

[rono]

I answered your questions mostly in the post above that last one you made. I guess you did not see it.

A boost and then a drop suggests that the program was being executed for a time, and then that stopped.

Not doing exactly the volume I suggest, even by accident, can have negative impacts.

At this point, we have the possibility that HRT damages the body's ability to produce hormones, at least for a time; or, some part of you is not cooperating to execute fully, which is suggested by a boost and then drop; or, you're not using the right settings.  Could be several things, really.

Let's use the same settings you're currently using, with a change in volume to 6 out of 16 on your cell phone.

You may be confused where I say above that 5.9G seems to be so powerful that we have to lower the volume, especially given these results.  The reason for that is that the more powerful the programs get, the easier it is to overshoot the mark for settings.  Volume plays a big part in that, and it is also largely responsible for what parts and levels of the subconscious we are communicating most directly with.  As the programs increase in power, we have to approach more and more gently to achieve the desired result, or maybe we need to communicate with different levels.  Whatever the case, switch to 6 out of 16 and run it for another month, month and a half to see how it compares.  From the experiments I have been doing with 5.9G I believe this will have a significant impact on achieving the goals better.

Hi @Shannon, 

You did answer them, apparently, I was actually writing my post at the time you were answering--thus the reason I missed it.

'levels of the subconscious', etc. makes some sense to me. Though, I don't think I'm resisting any of it at any level, because I have such a profound desire to be rid of the multiple-times-weekly shots and dependence on those -- especially when I travel. 

So, I will go from listening at 12 out of 16 (mistakenly instead of 13 out of 16) to your new recommendation of 6 out of 16. I'll leave everything else the same. 4 loops of flac per night for 5 nights with 1 night off.

I doubt it was the TRT that damaged my body's ability to produce hormones. If anything, it was the combination of a high-soy diet and a bout with hyperthyroidism and its treatment. It was after these two events (hormone crash due to the high-soy diet-which I was attempting to use per the 90s health recommendation to 'go vegan' for a time.) and grave's disease which seems to be a follow-on to that experience because I did not initially learn my 'stay away from soy' lesson. If anything damaged my hormone production abilities it was those things. 

After the hormone crash and Grave's disease, I figured out that I had a major hormone issue in late 2000 or 2001. I had started a new job and was unable to learn the new things I needed to and after researching my symptoms I went to my doc (who was very old-fashioned and on the brink of retirement) and begged for a T test. He didn't want to order it, he just wanted to give me an SSRI. We made a deal and he ordered the test. That is when we found that my T was at the level (according to the time) of an 84 year old man and I was in my mid 40s. He didn't offer anything but a 'monthly T shot'. This sounded like a rollercoster, so I declined and sought a way to treat myself with diet, herbs and amino acids, etc.

I ran across a couple guys who had successfully treated their 'secondary hypogonadism' and followed suit. For over 10 years this worked fine, then began to diminish in effectiveness, regardless of the protocols I tried. Finally, now a bit more well off, I spent the $$$ to go to a hormone doctor (not covered by any insurance in the US--at least not that I have every found). The tests he ordered showed me at the bottom end of the T spectrum. He got me feeling  great. 

Now that I'm retired, I want to spend less money on doctors and herbs, so when I saw HOY, I thought, this may be it! Roll back the years, get off of all the burdensome protocols that keep me feeling 'normal'. The blood tests that I took before I started HRT with my first hormone doctor and the results that we got on this last test were nearly identical. Sooooo... I doubt it was the HRT/TRT. As I go over my history here, I am wondering if this isn't a case of 'damage done' btwn the soy I used for a couple of years and the herbs I used afterward I may not be the best candidate for hormonal/glandular renewal through this technology. 

Having said that, I still have hopes (though not as high as at the beginning), I spent the money after convincing my wife it was worth a shot, I want to prove myself right 

So I'll follow the newly tweaked instructions you sent me and hope for a change in my response.

Cheers!
RonO

p.s. I read your previous post that I had missed--even now I kept scrolling past it for some reason, but managed to find it. I agree with your thinking about the volume, sounds kind of like 'coaxing' the subconscious to cooperate rather than a 'command and control' approach. The TID was so powerful, I have to think that SOMETHING is going on here and it is just a matter of figuring out how to get the mind & body to respond to the sub the way that it did to the TID.

RonO

[rono]

Hi All, (9/19/22) - morning after nite #2

I am kind of surprised, but... now that we've turned the volume DOWN to 6 clicks since my last 'day off', I feel stuff happening again.
My weight appears to have surged. My muscles 'feel like they are filling out' again (very subjective, but I seem to notice a certain feeling when my muscles are responding to exercise and feeding.)
Sex drive is up. Noticeably.

No time to write today. Maybe tomorrow. But wanted to give some quick feedback.
Cheers!
RonO

[Shannon]

Keep in mind that what you think of as being "you" is your so-called "conscious" mind, and it is basically a small sliver of your whole consciousness. There are many different parts, layers and levels of awareness within you, and some of them will have different points of view, desires and levels of understanding from that sliver of consciousness, which is generally among the least conscious of all of them, from what I can tell. So it's entirely possible for "you" you deeply want something, and maybe one or more parts of your subconscious, while other parts may deeply want exactly the reverse. And those parts may simply be too deep for your conscious self to detect in a way that it understands.

[rono]

Hi All, (9/22/22)

Just finished my first full cycle at 6 clicks. It has been interesting. Also, I just returned from my Dr. appt where she reviewed my hormone panel and general labs.

First, regarding the first full cycle on 6 clicks. When I first switched to 6 clicks, I really felt it. After a day, there was morning wood for the first time in weeks, but that faded over the next couple of days. Motivation and mental clarity surged, then sagged and I spent yesterday fighting distraction like I had not for over a month. So...

Question for @Shannon:
Is it possible that this volume thing where 'different volumes speak to different levels of consciousness' needs to be varied every couple days or every cycle? I was again, initially impressed with the results, but they faded. Just as at the beginning when I was listening at full volume--great response first few days, then it tapered off. Perhaps I need to jump the volume up and down from time-to-time to hit 'all the levels of my subconsciousness'? If so how frequently and what would be the target levels? Multiple levels? Just low or high?

Second, my hormone doc was super-impressed with my results. She noted they were down substantially, but that they looked good to her EXCEPT the free T... and high SHBG. She wants me to take Nettle root to help drive down the SHBG and thus free up more of the T that is bound so I end up with a better T profile. @Shannon, what do you think of that? I'm inclined to go along with it because it isn't something that is directly affecting any of the key hormones by trying to create greater T, FSH or LH output. She is fairly open-minded and is excited to hear about my experiment. I asked for another hormone panel to take in about a month to 6 weeks. She's very interested to see how the subliminal works. 

By the end of this last cycle (yesterday to be exact) my distraction/focus was shot. Worse than it had been for a month. Any thoughts on that? No real changes that I can imagine affecting it other than that feeling that the effects of the sub were tapering down over the course of the cycle.

Tonight I break from the sub and tomorrow is 'date night' so we'll see how well I function this time around. The break from the T shots, etc. has made me more relaxed going without the exogenous chemicals. I would get really nervous about performing without my T, etc. but I'm not performing as well in general, BUT I am still performing adequately to my wife's delight.

Cheers,
RonO