OF v2 or E4?

[London1]

A while ago I was deciding between E4, LTU6 and possibly OF. I decided to go with E4 as I decided emotional healing was my main priority and E4 was directly geared to that.

But now that an even newer version of OF 5.75g has been released, im being tempted towards it especially after seeing all the life changing results on v1 so far.

Question is, are my issues more FEAR based? Or more emotionally instability based?

My issues again are lots of deep fears, moderate to severe social anxiety, shyness, very low confidence and self esteem, softness - easily upset. Strong avoidance behaviours, unable to make and keep friends, social awkwardness, difficulty thinking abd speaking in social situations.
Stuttering...which causes the above to happen more, and that in turn causes more stuttering...negative cycle. 

Would it really be a good idea to run E4 in that case instead of OF? 
Or are those E4 issues? Thats what im confused about. They really can be confused between OF and E4 issues.
Its important to note that most people do not have that level social anxiety and confidence issues that I do.
Also a thought Ive had, what does a person who has fear but emotionally healthy look like and vice versa, fearless but not emotionally healthy.


Due to the extent of my issues i would probably have to run one of those for 16 months. But if I do that id want to pick the best one for my issues to not waste time and effort.

Or I was thinking of starting with OF for 8 months, then switch to E4 for 8 months, then switch back to OF if needed or continue with E4.
Not sure what to do.

[tolgaocal80]

according to my observations, social anxiety, shyness etc self-esteem problems are coming from not just fear but some sort of wrong beliefs,
you "MAY" have some beliefs that makes you think you don't deserve a damn thing or you will get hurt if you do or have this things.

so E4 are dealt with something else I think, not on fear issues but on some wrong beliefs that you have.

I didn't use OFV1 but I think about OF2 before using something else

[fab10]

I was thinking of starting with OF for 8 months, [...]

^ that! You already answered your own question.

It sounds to me like the issues you mention are almost exclusively fear based.
Both E4 and LTU contain a Fear Removal Module but it does not work as deeply and broadly as stand-alone OF (because the effect is limited to the goals of the respective program and also because the focus is split among different issues.) OF will target all fears all the way and give you a clean slate to build upon.
I recommend OF for 8 months and after the 8 months you re-evaluate and maybe run LTU or E4 after that, or whatever you feel it’s best at that point. You’ll likely be a very different person after a full run of OF, it’s too early now to be concerned with what you’ll do after OF.
Furthermore, as tolgaocal80 pointed out, all other programs will work better after OF.

what does a person who has fear but emotionally healthy look like

That person does not exist in my opinion - any significant amount of fear will create unresourceful emotions.

[London1]

[quote]
what does a person who has fear but emotionally healthy look like

That person does not exist in my opinion - any significant amount of fear will create unresourceful emotions.

I was thinking that may not be possible.

I think I will just go with the OF v2 for 8 months and see where I stand after.

[Frosted]

LTU if you're willing to sacrifice speed for more coverage of your issues.

[THolt]

according to my observations, social anxiety, shyness etc self-esteem problems are coming from not just fear but some sort of wrong beliefs,
you have some beliefs that makes you think you don't deserve a damn thing or you will get hurt if you do or have this things.

so E4 are dealt with something else I think, not on fear issues but on some wrong beliefs that you have.

I didn't use OFV1 but I think about OF2 before using something else

I am running E4 and I have noticed subtle changes emotionally. I have also noticed my anxiety is much less. I am in month 3 of my 8 month run so I have a long way to go!

[tolgaocal80]

according to my observations, social anxiety, shyness etc self-esteem problems are coming from not just fear but some sort of wrong beliefs,
you have some beliefs that makes you think you don't deserve a damn thing or you will get hurt if you do or have this things.

so E4 are dealt with something else I think, not on fear issues but on some wrong beliefs that you have.

I didn't use OFV1 but I think about OF2 before using something else

I am running E4 and I have noticed subtle changes emotionally. I have also noticed my anxiety is much less. I am in month 3 of my 8 month run so I have a long way to go!

I read what I wrote when you quetod it, sorry there is some typo in there , now changed

[callie]

A while ago I was deciding between E4, LTU6 and possibly OF. I decided to go with E4 as I decided emotional healing was my main priority and E4 was directly geared to that.

But now that an even newer version of OF 5.75g has been released, im being tempted towards it especially after seeing all the life changing results on v1 so far.

Question is, are my issues more FEAR based? Or more emotionally instability based?

My issues again are lots of deep fears, moderate to severe social anxiety, shyness, very low confidence and self esteem, softness - easily upset. Strong avoidance behaviours, unable to make and keep friends, social awkwardness, difficulty thinking abd speaking in social situations.
Stuttering...which causes the above to happen more, and that in turn causes more stuttering...negative cycle. 

Would it really be a good idea to run E4 in that case instead of OF? 
Or are those E4 issues? Thats what im confused about. They really can be confused between OF and E4 issues.
Its important to note that most people do not have that level social anxiety and confidence issues that I do.
Also a thought Ive had, what does a person who has fear but emotionally healthy look like and vice versa, fearless but not emotionally healthy.


Due to the extent of my issues i would probably have to run one of those for 16 months. But if I do that id want to pick the best one for my issues to not waste time and effort.

Or I was thinking of starting with OF for 8 months, then switch to E4 for 8 months, then switch back to OF if needed or continue with E4.
Not sure what to do.

Ive been on OF for 2,5 months. And as you I struggle with low self esteem and social anxiety which hasnt really changed too much on OF. I believe that in my case my social anxiety is 99% rooted in shame and a lack of self compassion. OF in my experience doesnt really deal with that, atleast so far it hasnt. It has absolutely given me more of a idgaf attitude and a less fearful approach to things in general. But it is my belief that most issues around low self esteem and social anxiety stems from lack of self compassion, and fear is a symptom rather than the cause itself. As I havent tried E4 I cannot speak for how well it will work, but given the information about it in the shop, it sure sounds like it will deal with self esteem issues, which is in my experience the main reason we are socially anxious with low confidence in the first place.

[London1]

A while ago I was deciding between E4, LTU6 and possibly OF. I decided to go with E4 as I decided emotional healing was my main priority and E4 was directly geared to that.

But now that an even newer version of OF 5.75g has been released, im being tempted towards it especially after seeing all the life changing results on v1 so far.

Question is, are my issues more FEAR based? Or more emotionally instability based?

My issues again are lots of deep fears, moderate to severe social anxiety, shyness, very low confidence and self esteem, softness - easily upset. Strong avoidance behaviours, unable to make and keep friends, social awkwardness, difficulty thinking abd speaking in social situations.
Stuttering...which causes the above to happen more, and that in turn causes more stuttering...negative cycle. 

Would it really be a good idea to run E4 in that case instead of OF? 
Or are those E4 issues? Thats what im confused about. They really can be confused between OF and E4 issues.
Its important to note that most people do not have that level social anxiety and confidence issues that I do.
Also a thought Ive had, what does a person who has fear but emotionally healthy look like and vice versa, fearless but not emotionally healthy.


Due to the extent of my issues i would probably have to run one of those for 16 months. But if I do that id want to pick the best one for my issues to not waste time and effort.

Or I was thinking of starting with OF for 8 months, then switch to E4 for 8 months, then switch back to OF if needed or continue with E4.
Not sure what to do.

Ive been on OF for 2,5 months. And as you I struggle with social anxiety which hasnt really changed too much on OF. I believe that in my case my social anxiety is 99% rooted in shame and a lack of self compassion. OF in my experience doesnt really deal with that, atleast so far it hasnt. It has absolutely given me more of a idgaf attitude and a less fearful approach to things in general. But it is my belief that most issues around low self esteem and social anxiety stems from lack of self compassion, and fear is the symptom to that rather than the cause. As I havent tried E4 I cannot speak for how well it will work, but given the information about it, it sure sounds like it is more directed to deal with that.

I was going to say damn, you got me confused again! But then I remembered a post from shannon that said that those issues mostly stem from fear so I intend to do an OF run first then possibly switch to E4 because I believe my SA may be from shame and lack of self compassion too.
Besides, E4 may work better after a run of OF.

[callie]

A while ago I was deciding between E4, LTU6 and possibly OF. I decided to go with E4 as I decided emotional healing was my main priority and E4 was directly geared to that.

But now that an even newer version of OF 5.75g has been released, im being tempted towards it especially after seeing all the life changing results on v1 so far.

Question is, are my issues more FEAR based? Or more emotionally instability based?

My issues again are lots of deep fears, moderate to severe social anxiety, shyness, very low confidence and self esteem, softness - easily upset. Strong avoidance behaviours, unable to make and keep friends, social awkwardness, difficulty thinking abd speaking in social situations.
Stuttering...which causes the above to happen more, and that in turn causes more stuttering...negative cycle. 

Would it really be a good idea to run E4 in that case instead of OF? 
Or are those E4 issues? Thats what im confused about. They really can be confused between OF and E4 issues.
Its important to note that most people do not have that level social anxiety and confidence issues that I do.
Also a thought Ive had, what does a person who has fear but emotionally healthy look like and vice versa, fearless but not emotionally healthy.


Due to the extent of my issues i would probably have to run one of those for 16 months. But if I do that id want to pick the best one for my issues to not waste time and effort.

Or I was thinking of starting with OF for 8 months, then switch to E4 for 8 months, then switch back to OF if needed or continue with E4.
Not sure what to do.

Ive been on OF for 2,5 months. And as you I struggle with social anxiety which hasnt really changed too much on OF. I believe that in my case my social anxiety is 99% rooted in shame and a lack of self compassion. OF in my experience doesnt really deal with that, atleast so far it hasnt. It has absolutely given me more of a idgaf attitude and a less fearful approach to things in general. But it is my belief that most issues around low self esteem and social anxiety stems from lack of self compassion, and fear is the symptom to that rather than the cause. As I havent tried E4 I cannot speak for how well it will work, but given the information about it, it sure sounds like it is more directed to deal with that.

I was going to say damn, you got me confused again! But then I remembered a post from shannon that said that those issues mostly stem from fear so I intend to do an OF run first then possibly switch to E4 because I believe my SA may be from shame and lack of self compassion too.
Besides, E4 may work better after a run of OF.

If you remove fear you dont really resolve the issue of self esteem imo. In short we lack self esteem because we have been conditioned by our upbringing, society and culture to not value and like ourselves. If you remove the fear you have only taken away the symptom. To heal self esteem we need to cultivate acceptance and compassion toward ourselves. 

OF is good and its not a bad choice, but only removing fear wont really fix your relationship with yourself (low self esteem). Not my intention to confuse you but this is my experience atleast.

[fab10]

If you remove the fear you have only taken away the symptom.

I respectfully yet strongly disagree. On the contrary, I believe that fear is the root of most emotional issues (If I recall correctly Shannon said “all emotional issues”.)

Removing fear might not be sufficient to solve all emotional problems, which is why EPRHA exists, but it’s certainly necessary (which is why EPRHA includes FRM but I digress.)

Furthermore, London1 mentions lots of deep fears as his very first issue.

I can also assure you from personal experience that it’s hard to cultivate self esteem and acceptance of yourself if there is a (possibly subconscious) fear of being judged, being punished or being rejected for what you are.

[callie]

If you remove the fear you have only taken away the symptom.

I respectfully yet strongly disagree. On the contrary, I believe that fear is the root of most emotional issues (If I recall correctly Shannon said “all emotional issues”.)

Removing fear might not be sufficient to solve all emotional problems, which is why EPRHA exists, but it’s certainly necessary (which is why EPRHA includes FRM but I digress.)

Furthermore, London1 mentions lots of deep fears as his very first issue.

I can also assure you from personal experience that it’s hard to cultivate self esteem and acceptance of yourself if there is a (possibly subconscious) fear of being judged, being punished or being rejected for what you are.

I  genuinely believe that our default emotional state is love, and the lack thereof will manifest as fear in various forms such as anger, shame, hatred etc. Ive tried to heal my low self esteem for years, and the only thing that made difference is when I began accepting myself with compassion (which is super hard and takes time). OF does help with that because of the reasons you pointed out, but only removing fear without cultivating self love will not fix low self esteem imo, is what im saying.

[Shannon]

If you remove the fear you have only taken away the symptom.

I respectfully yet strongly disagree. On the contrary, I believe that fear is the root of most emotional issues (If I recall correctly Shannon said “all emotional issues”.)

Removing fear might not be sufficient to solve all emotional problems, which is why EPRHA exists, but it’s certainly necessary (which is why EPRHA includes FRM but I digress.)

Furthermore, London1 mentions lots of deep fears as his very first issue.

I can also assure you from personal experience that it’s hard to cultivate self esteem and acceptance of yourself if there is a (possibly subconscious) fear of being judged, being punished or being rejected for what you are.

I  genuinely believe that our default emotional state is love, and the lack thereof will manifest as fear in various forms such as anger, shame, hatred etc. Ive tried to heal my low self esteem for years, and the only thing that made difference is when I began accepting myself with compassion (which is super hard and takes time). OF does help with that because of the reasons you pointed out, but only removing fear without cultivating self love will not fix low self esteem imo, is what im saying.

Our default state is actually variable from person to person.  It depends on a lot of factors, some that are very complex.  Love is always the initial state, but rarely remains the default state after we start learning anything in life, and depends on the body and the personality to be experienced and expressed at the conscious level much more than modern psychology understands.  

Fear is the reverse of love.  It is always learned initially, and then imagined into existence later on in most cases, usually in response to subconscious fears.  

Fear is the root of every issue I have found that holds people back, and that is based on trying to find the source of the reason why people haven't always gotten good results from my subliminals.  It always, always traces back to fear.  Fear can spawn other emotional states, but anger is usually not a direct child of fear, but rather a direct child of frustration based on the restriction fear brings, coupled with a force that pushes against that restriction.  

Shame really is an entirely different emotion, and is not caused by fear at all, as far as I can tell, although they are usually learned together and they definitely support one another.  

Hate is usually the direct child of fear, an effort to remove whatever is threatening, especially if we see it within ourselves.  

Self esteem is not going to be affected by removing fear unless the fear is somehow triggering that state, and it is almost never going to be the case that low self esteem is the result of fear.  Fear is not the result of low self esteem, either, but there can be fears that result from other fears that are triggered by the low self esteem.

Low self esteem ALWAYS comes from one or more experiences that are interpreted in a way that results in beliefs which result in low self esteem.  This usually happens very early in life, and the interpretation and subsequent beliefs are usually very irrational and logically false.  That level of awareness cannot think logically very well.  

For example, I know a woman who has low self esteem because when she was very young, her parents would fight, and she interpreted this to mean that she had done something that made them mad, which she then concluded made her "guilty", "unworthy of love" and "a bad person".  She concluded also that because she was "bad" and "guilty", she deserved to be punished, so she subconsciously caused herself emotional pain and self sabotaged every time she was happy or succeeding.  This conclusion of "bad" and "guilty" and "deserving of punishment" was reached before she was 4 years old.  Not very logical, but it was the basis for all of her subsequent low self esteem, and no matter what she achieved in life, her self esteem did not improve until she started to change those initial beliefs.  Once she started changing those initial beliefs, everything else started to turn around in her life.  

Really, fear has very little to do with low self esteem in every case I have seen. 

Your experience with OF, you must remember that it is designed to work at your pace and work through things in a certain order.  Your speed of change may not be quick, and your order of operations may not be what you would like it to be, but the program is working, and given enough time, will get to the fears you would like it to deal with.  A major consideration is not causing more harm, which can easily happen if the program works too quickly or does things in the wrong order.

[callie]

If you remove the fear you have only taken away the symptom.

I respectfully yet strongly disagree. On the contrary, I believe that fear is the root of most emotional issues (If I recall correctly Shannon said “all emotional issues”.)

Removing fear might not be sufficient to solve all emotional problems, which is why EPRHA exists, but it’s certainly necessary (which is why EPRHA includes FRM but I digress.)

Furthermore, London1 mentions lots of deep fears as his very first issue.

I can also assure you from personal experience that it’s hard to cultivate self esteem and acceptance of yourself if there is a (possibly subconscious) fear of being judged, being punished or being rejected for what you are.

I  genuinely believe that our default emotional state is love, and the lack thereof will manifest as fear in various forms such as anger, shame, hatred etc. Ive tried to heal my low self esteem for years, and the only thing that made difference is when I began accepting myself with compassion (which is super hard and takes time). OF does help with that because of the reasons you pointed out, but only removing fear without cultivating self love will not fix low self esteem imo, is what im saying.

Our default state is actually variable from person to person.  It depends on a lot of factors, some that are very complex.  Love is always the initial state, but rarely remains the default state after we start learning anything in life, and depends on the body and the personality to be experienced and expressed at the conscious level much more than modern psychology understands.  

Fear is the reverse of love.  It is always learned initially, and then imagined into existence later on in most cases, usually in response to subconscious fears.  

Fear is the root of every issue I have found that holds people back, and that is based on trying to find the source of the reason why people haven't always gotten good results from my subliminals.  It always, always traces back to fear.  Fear can spawn other emotional states, but anger is usually not a direct child of fear, but rather a direct child of frustration based on the restriction fear brings, coupled with a force that pushes against that restriction.  

Shame really is an entirely different emotion, and is not caused by fear at all, as far as I can tell, although they are usually learned together and they definitely support one another.  

Hate is usually the direct child of fear, an effort to remove whatever is threatening, especially if we see it within ourselves.  

Self esteem is not going to be affected by removing fear unless the fear is somehow triggering that state, and it is almost never going to be the case that low self esteem is the result of fear.  Fear is not the result of low self esteem, either, but there can be fears that result from other fears that are triggered by the low self esteem.

Low self esteem ALWAYS comes from one or more experiences that are interpreted in a way that results in beliefs which result in low self esteem.  This usually happens very early in life, and the interpretation and subsequent beliefs are usually very irrational and logically false.  That level of awareness cannot think logically very well.  

For example, I know a woman who has low self esteem because when she was very young, her parents would fight, and she interpreted this to mean that she had done something that made them mad, which she then concluded made her "guilty", "unworthy of love" and "a bad person".  She concluded also that because she was "bad" and "guilty", she deserved to be punished, so she subconsciously caused herself emotional pain and self sabotaged every time she was happy or succeeding.  This conclusion of "bad" and "guilty" and "deserving of punishment" was reached before she was 4 years old.  Not very logical, but it was the basis for all of her subsequent low self esteem, and no matter what she achieved in life, her self esteem did not improve until she started to change those initial beliefs.  Once she started changing those initial beliefs, everything else started to turn around in her life.  

Really, fear has very little to do with low self esteem in every case I have seen. 

Your experience with OF, you must remember that it is designed to work at your pace and work through things in a certain order.  Your speed of change may not be quick, and your order of operations may not be what you would like it to be, but the program is working, and given enough time, will get to the fears you would like it to deal with.  A major consideration is not causing more harm, which can easily happen if the program works too quickly or does things in the wrong order.

English isnt my first language so when I said default state I meant the state which is prior to all other states, like our most primordial or original state. I think thats what you mean with initial state as well.

And I wanted to clarify that the root cause to most emotional issues (note Emotional issues, not all issues) isnt fear as fab10 pointed out, that is missing the point tbh. Every emotion can be categorized into either positive or negative (love vs fear). And as we have pointed out love is the initial state, so most negative emotions are a result of being out of touch with that state. In other words shame, hatred, self directed anger, guilt etc in the grand sense is what manifests when we are lacking love, that is the root cause, not fear by itself. 

My experience with OF has been fine and it has dealt with different subconscious fears of mine. Please dont interpret my posts as me complaining about the results, im actually content with what it has done so far. I was just explaining to london1 that to heal low self esteem, which was what I thought he really wanted, OF might not be the absolute best choice for that. I would rather go with something like E4 in that case.