(07-27-2017, 08:55 PM)RTBoss Wrote: You're clearly intelligent, perceptive, and empathetic of other's plights. You share some deep insight around the board. I'd say if I met you, I'd be surprised if you didn't come across as a completely capable person. So yeah, break those false beliefs about yourself, because from where I sit, there's no truth to them. Try saying/thinking, "Regardless of feeling *this way about myself* right now, I could be wrong. I have a lot to offer, such as 'A,B,C.'. I'm going to do 'X' anyway, even if just as an experiment, and see what happens."

I'm always amazed by people with NO talent and a completely diminished capacity for deep thought who get out there and do things, without care for how they're being perceived. Gotta give 'em credit for that, I guess. Get some of that confidence and come-what-may attitude, I think you'll start enjoying yourself a lot more, see who you really are, and tell that shitty little voice to STFU!

(07-29-2017, 07:33 AM)mat422 Wrote: Been a while since I've done one of these, but here goes. Just need to get some stuff off my chest and vent a little.

As I found myself reading the shadow work book I thought about the millions of other books on the market. I've thought about the books I've read. I've thought about the people's lives who miraculously changed. And I thought about my life that stayed the same and probably thousands of others who didn't get results. So it makes me think some of these people think they know more than they actually do. I thought about all the people out there in the world who can barely do their own jobs, but are somewhat delusional in how excellent they are. Then it got me thinking I'm sure the same exists in the self help community. Then I realized it's like the blind leading the blind.

(07-29-2017, 08:10 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 07:33 AM)mat422 Wrote: Been a while since I've done one of these, but here goes. Just need to get some stuff off my chest and vent a little.

As I found myself reading the shadow work book I thought about the millions of other books on the market. I've thought about the books I've read. I've thought about the people's lives who miraculously changed. And I thought about my life that stayed the same and probably thousands of others who didn't get results. So it makes me think some of these people think they know more than they actually do. I thought about all the people out there in the world who can barely do their own jobs, but are somewhat delusional in how excellent they are. Then it got me thinking I'm sure the same exists in the self help community. Then I realized it's like the blind leading the blind.

This is something I've been wrestling with lately. How people don't know much, but they say they do. I guess it's a self-esteem "maintanence" behavior, or pride, or saving face, but it's true: most people know shit.

And, advise given to your unique situation can't possibly cover everything. Because only you know you.

So I take it all with a grain of salt, and go with what works.

More and more I'm trying to focus on getting results, not on "doing the right thing". What gets results IS the right thing, but there are many ways to get results. Some better than others.

(07-30-2017, 01:14 PM)mat422 Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 08:10 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 07:33 AM)mat422 Wrote: Been a while since I've done one of these, but here goes. Just need to get some stuff off my chest and vent a little.

As I found myself reading the shadow work book I thought about the millions of other books on the market. I've thought about the books I've read. I've thought about the people's lives who miraculously changed. And I thought about my life that stayed the same and probably thousands of others who didn't get results. So it makes me think some of these people think they know more than they actually do. I thought about all the people out there in the world who can barely do their own jobs, but are somewhat delusional in how excellent they are. Then it got me thinking I'm sure the same exists in the self help community. Then I realized it's like the blind leading the blind.

This is something I've been wrestling with lately. How people don't know much, but they say they do. I guess it's a self-esteem "maintanence" behavior, or pride, or saving face, but it's true: most people know shit.

And, advise given to your unique situation can't possibly cover everything. Because only you know you.

So I take it all with a grain of salt, and go with what works.

More and more I'm trying to focus on getting results, not on "doing the right thing". What gets results IS the right thing, but there are many ways to get results. Some better than others.

It's a fine line. Like I've said before, sometimes we have defense mechanism that aren't readily apparent to us. So in my case I can have a tendency to dismiss stuff or think I know better when I don't. It all seems like one big crapshoot at times. It's the most frustrating thing for me. It seems like I'm so open minded I believe everything or I'm so closed off I stick to my narrow perspective. Black and white thinking. My mind has so many twist and turns to it I don't know what to believe anymore.

(07-30-2017, 01:32 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-30-2017, 01:14 PM)mat422 Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 08:10 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 07:33 AM)mat422 Wrote: Been a while since I've done one of these, but here goes. Just need to get some stuff off my chest and vent a little.

As I found myself reading the shadow work book I thought about the millions of other books on the market. I've thought about the books I've read. I've thought about the people's lives who miraculously changed. And I thought about my life that stayed the same and probably thousands of others who didn't get results. So it makes me think some of these people think they know more than they actually do. I thought about all the people out there in the world who can barely do their own jobs, but are somewhat delusional in how excellent they are. Then it got me thinking I'm sure the same exists in the self help community. Then I realized it's like the blind leading the blind.

This is something I've been wrestling with lately. How people don't know much, but they say they do. I guess it's a self-esteem "maintanence" behavior, or pride, or saving face, but it's true: most people know shit.

And, advise given to your unique situation can't possibly cover everything. Because only you know you.

So I take it all with a grain of salt, and go with what works.

More and more I'm trying to focus on getting results, not on "doing the right thing". What gets results IS the right thing, but there are many ways to get results. Some better than others.

It's a fine line. Like I've said before, sometimes we have defense mechanism that aren't readily apparent to us. So in my case I can have a tendency to dismiss stuff or think I know better when I don't. It all seems like one big crapshoot at times. It's the most frustrating thing for me. It seems like I'm so open minded I believe everything or I'm so closed off I stick to my narrow perspective. Black and white thinking. My mind has so many twist and turns to it I don't know what to believe anymore.

Lol, tell me about it. This is me to a "T"

The crazy thing is, how does anybody get good at anything except repeatedly coming to the same conclusion or getting the same results? So if being open minded is a good thing, then experts are very narrow-minded. If you get my drift.

(07-30-2017, 02:17 PM)mat422 Wrote:

(07-30-2017, 01:32 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-30-2017, 01:14 PM)mat422 Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 08:10 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-29-2017, 07:33 AM)mat422 Wrote: Been a while since I've done one of these, but here goes. Just need to get some stuff off my chest and vent a little.

As I found myself reading the shadow work book I thought about the millions of other books on the market. I've thought about the books I've read. I've thought about the people's lives who miraculously changed. And I thought about my life that stayed the same and probably thousands of others who didn't get results. So it makes me think some of these people think they know more than they actually do. I thought about all the people out there in the world who can barely do their own jobs, but are somewhat delusional in how excellent they are. Then it got me thinking I'm sure the same exists in the self help community. Then I realized it's like the blind leading the blind.

This is something I've been wrestling with lately. How people don't know much, but they say they do. I guess it's a self-esteem "maintanence" behavior, or pride, or saving face, but it's true: most people know shit.

And, advise given to your unique situation can't possibly cover everything. Because only you know you.

So I take it all with a grain of salt, and go with what works.

More and more I'm trying to focus on getting results, not on "doing the right thing". What gets results IS the right thing, but there are many ways to get results. Some better than others.

It's a fine line. Like I've said before, sometimes we have defense mechanism that aren't readily apparent to us. So in my case I can have a tendency to dismiss stuff or think I know better when I don't. It all seems like one big crapshoot at times. It's the most frustrating thing for me. It seems like I'm so open minded I believe everything or I'm so closed off I stick to my narrow perspective. Black and white thinking. My mind has so many twist and turns to it I don't know what to believe anymore.

Lol, tell me about it. This is me to a "T"

The crazy thing is, how does anybody get good at anything except repeatedly coming to the same conclusion or getting the same results? So if being open minded is a good thing, then experts are very narrow-minded. If you get my drift.

Yeah I hear you. This kind of goes onto the objective vs subjective truth philosophical discussion. For every person thinking they have some objective fact about how the world works, another refutes it and at the same time demonstrates how it isn't true. The only thing I can really say is that people have their own internal belief structures and models of reality. At any point we are operating out of some kind of belief structure. Some people stay within it and some people venture out of it. I guess it all depends what you personally want to do. Get lots of success being an asshole? Ok. Get lots of success being a good person? Also ok. It just seems like it's more about the intent and power behind the individual rather than their actions or methods. So maybe it's a case of opening the mind and expanding possibilities then choosing whatever you want. So we shift from open mindedness to narrow mindedness, it's like a constantly fluctuating state rather than a static one.

(07-30-2017, 02:17 PM)mat422 Wrote: Having said that, thinking about it really does my head in so I'd imagine a lot of people just don't even bother thinking of things in these terms. Fear seems like it would lead people to gravitate towards what they know and are familiar with rather than venture outside of that. When you have a sort of roadmap to life things seem easier or more stable. But when you get rid of that roadmap it's kind of like flying blind.

This got longer than I expected lol. Anyway, yeah. It's not an easy question that's for damn sure.

Quote:As far as "objective vs. subjective truth": I'm more or less of the opinion that results in the external world are the objective reality. That's how I got so good at sales, simply studying the effects I was having and tweaking my approach.

Eventually, one can come into harmony with "the way things are".

Interestingly, now that I'm entertaining other schools of thought, my results have all but evaporated, but that is besides the point.

I would say there are multiple ways of doing things, but unless they yield results externally, they are not worth keeping. SO yes, asshole vs. "good guy" can work, but only if they DO work, in which case you choose which you resonate with most.

HOWEVER, if one works and one doesn't, you have your clear winner, while if neither works, you are missing the key element that DOES work.

In any case, what DOES work is the objective reality. IMO.

Quote:The other side of it is emotional impact. If you have STRONG emotions (whether they be good or bad) you will see effects ripple in the outside world, while if you do not or are in a state of confusion or apathy, things will be ghosting you (results themselves will ghost you, this is what is happening to me in sales ATM).

Despite getting an app yesterday. I got that app while I was very nervous (strong emotion). Once I got it, the nervousness subsided and I got nothing further. Coincidence? Hard to say, N=1 after all, However the flip side is not considered in that I could at one time get apps in sales on command.

But I don't want to talk about my sales woes, I'm simply trying to identify the "it" factor.

Everywhere you look, 20% of the effort yields 80% of the results.

And so, perhaps learning about some things are simply learning about the other 80% that yields only 20% (like learning body language. I'm pretty much convinced knowing BL is useless unless you need to know it to make money, which I don't in my profession, because I made money for years without knowing anything about it.), which is why they never seem to improve anything all that much, while if you find the "it" factor, you've found the 20% that yields 80%

So I suppose you have to know what is needed to get the results you want, and this is done by knowing what your outcome is, and knowing if you are getting closer or farther away from that outcome and what needs to be done to achieve it.

(07-31-2017, 10:00 AM)mat422 Wrote:

Quote:As far as "objective vs. subjective truth": I'm more or less of the opinion that results in the external world are the objective reality. That's how I got so good at sales, simply studying the effects I was having and tweaking my approach.

Eventually, one can come into harmony with "the way things are".

Interestingly, now that I'm entertaining other schools of thought, my results have all but evaporated, but that is besides the point.

I would say there are multiple ways of doing things, but unless they yield results externally, they are not worth keeping. SO yes, asshole vs. "good guy" can work, but only if they DO work, in which case you choose which you resonate with most.

HOWEVER, if one works and one doesn't, you have your clear winner, while if neither works, you are missing the key element that DOES work.

In any case, what DOES work is the objective reality. IMO.

The problem lies in the fact that none of us are completely objective. Like if someone holds the belief that being an asshole is what attracts women to you and tries to be nice it won't work because their personal reality is asshole= results. What I'm trying to get at is results don't always determine the objective truth. Not if the thing analyzing these truths is as subjective as the human mind. The thing is with our beliefs sometimes they are so ingrained in us and so much a part of our reality we can't think outside of the box. They are hidden, we can't access them so we naturally assume they aren't there. Then comes confirmation bias where we only collect evidence or see what we want to see to support that internal belief structure.

(07-31-2017, 10:00 AM)mat422 Wrote: What you wrote about body language and sales reminds me of something in my life related to music and music theory. Music theory is often cited as something really vital to making music. But there are many successful artists who don't know theory and there are many mediocre ones who do know it. So that "it" factor you're talking about. I get it. In my honest opinion that's what separates people from a life of success, but I think the "it" factor is different for every one of us. It's a very intangible yet real thing. I think it's more about identifying our flaws and working on them, while capitalizing on our strengths. So it's not one thing, but a collection of many lessons we have to learn.

I honestly believe the "it" factor is just our beliefs. The correct beliefs being internalized for our desired outcome = success. All that overthinking and trying to figure out what to do goes right out the window because we embody it instead of trying to become it.

(07-31-2017, 10:27 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(07-31-2017, 10:00 AM)mat422 Wrote: The problem lies in the fact that none of us are completely objective. Like if someone holds the belief that being an asshole is what attracts women to you and tries to be nice it won't work because their personal reality is asshole= results. What I'm trying to get at is results don't always determine the objective truth. Not if the thing analyzing these truths is as subjective as the human mind. The thing is with our beliefs sometimes they are so ingrained in us and so much a part of our reality we can't think outside of the box. They are hidden, we can't access them so we naturally assume they aren't there. Then comes confirmation bias where we only collect evidence or see what we want to see to support that internal belief structure.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

If something doesn't yield external results, it does not work (for the person using it).

The reason why so many different things work for so many different people is because people are different. What works for one might not work for another. But still, if something gives external results, it DOES "work". Whoever is analyzing it is irrelevant. The external results are the objective reality.

Now, I agree some people may not be self-aware enough to know what, exactly, is causing the results. Like in the case of the jerk, "treat women like shit!" is his motto, but maybe the reason it works is because he and the girls are having fun while he does it, and that is what is really turning them on. Not him treating them like shit, but his self-amusement and including them.

Quote:I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

If something doesn't yield external results, it does not work (for the person using it).

The reason why so many different things work for so many different people is because people are different. What works for one might not work for another. But still, if something gives external results, it DOES "work". Whoever is analyzing it is irrelevant. The external results are the objective reality.

Now, I agree some people may not be self-aware enough to know what, exactly, is causing the results. Like in the case of the jerk, "treat women like shit!" is his motto, but maybe the reason it works is because he and the girls are having fun while he does it, and that is what is really turning them on. Not him treating them like shit, but his self-amusement and including them.

Quote:Wow man, I agree 100% with this. Very aptly put.

In sales I've been told I'm a natural and can get away with things others can't. I think that is a sure sign one is dwelling in "it". Whether it be sales, music, women, doesn't matter.

I also think that, along with identifying flaws and capitalizing on strengths, it is more or less about having the courage to be what you know you are, and not hiding it from others. Not imposing, but not hiding. Interacting, yet not dictating. Being, not forcing.

EDIT: Oh, btw, have you ever read "The Alchemist"? It's a great book. In it he talks about the objective reality I'm trying to describe. He calls it "the wind" I believe. I need to read it again but yeah, great book for that.

(08-01-2017, 05:01 AM)mat422 Wrote:

Quote:I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

If something doesn't yield external results, it does not work (for the person using it).

The reason why so many different things work for so many different people is because people are different. What works for one might not work for another. But still, if something gives external results, it DOES "work". Whoever is analyzing it is irrelevant. The external results are the objective reality.

Now, I agree some people may not be self-aware enough to know what, exactly, is causing the results. Like in the case of the jerk, "treat women like shit!" is his motto, but maybe the reason it works is because he and the girls are having fun while he does it, and that is what is really turning them on. Not him treating them like shit, but his self-amusement and including them.

But my question is how does anyone know they are self aware enough to figure out what is really generating the results? That's what I'm getting at when I say the human mind is subjective. For example Shannon uses predictive models to aid in his subliminal creation, without those he stated we would still be at 3G tech I think. How can you personally know that the results you're witnessing are what you attribute them to? That's my constant thought process on this stuff.

(08-01-2017, 05:01 AM)mat422 Wrote:

Quote:Wow man, I agree 100% with this. Very aptly put.

In sales I've been told I'm a natural and can get away with things others can't. I think that is a sure sign one is dwelling in "it". Whether it be sales, music, women, doesn't matter.

I also think that, along with identifying flaws and capitalizing on strengths, it is more or less about having the courage to be what you know you are, and not hiding it from others. Not imposing, but not hiding. Interacting, yet not dictating. Being, not forcing.

EDIT: Oh, btw, have you ever read "The Alchemist"? It's a great book. In it he talks about the objective reality I'm trying to describe. He calls it "the wind" I believe. I need to read it again but yeah, great book for that.

Definitely something to having the courage to be who you are. But I think this goes back to things like fear. I always had the belief that the potential is there, it just needs to be released. The inner self is always pushing forward and naturally gravitates towards growth. It's just fear and doubt that holds us all back.

Never read The Alchemist, but I'll definitely take a look at it. Seems right up my alley. Right now I'm reading this book Mind power . It's really old, like 19th century, but I figured it could hold some wisdom.