(06-19-2015, 09:03 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: I like AzfalG, he speaks the truth. No promises, but experience. I may also add that sales marketing is in existence for everything you buy. Absolutely everything. To take some kind of "moral" stand would leave you without anything to buy. Even IML uses marketing, so what's that about?

The bottom line should always be the bottom line: will this product or service benefit me?

And on that you have to do your research. You can't blame someone else for your own stupid mistakes. If you fall prey to "marketing BS" then who's the common denominator?

As a salesman I feel particularly demonized because people want my products when I will take the blame for anything that goes wrong, but then the customer gets all the glory when they made such a "smart decision" when it turns out to be a good product. However, this is REALITY, and that's just how it works. You can either fight it, or go with it and become a millionaire. Or, in AzfalG's case, a pussy magnet.

The thing I'd like to impress upon people is to take a hard look at where their morality has gotten them. I hear it all the time on here and is why I'm not on as frequently either. This whole "well yeah but those guys only get trashy girls" lol, seriously? Listen to yourself. Trashy girls? Wow man, where to begin with that.

The truth is you'll only find the "proof in the pudding" so, if something isn't working CHANGE IT, and for many of us this will mean changing ourselves to become that which we hate most. Sorry, but that's just how it is. If life worked the way we wanted it too, then we'd already have all the pussy/money we wanted, wouldn't we? Time to wake up and grow up my friends.

(06-21-2015, 04:54 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: Sorry man but the idea that Shannon didn't get into subs for the money isn't quite accurate. From what I understand, yes, he started out doing subs for himself, but then he started a business. Any good business man intends to make money. He saw that he could make a f*ck ton of money and so he made a business. And he uses marketing to get the word out, like any salesman/marketer.

He also encourages you to read "Double Your Dating" by DeAngelo when using AM.

Again though, the bottom line should always be: will this product or service help me? Some of DeAngelo's stuff has helped some people I'm sure.

(06-21-2015, 04:54 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: Sorry man but the idea that Shannon didn't get into subs for the money isn't quite accurate. From what I understand, yes, he started out doing subs for himself, but then he started a business. Any good business man intends to make money. He saw that he could make a f*ck ton of money and so he made a business. And he uses marketing to get the word out, like any salesman/marketer.

He also encourages you to read "Double Your Dating" by DeAngelo when using AM.

Again though, the bottom line should always be: will this product or service help me? Some of DeAngelo's stuff has helped some people I'm sure.

(06-21-2015, 10:45 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote:

(06-21-2015, 04:54 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: Sorry man but the idea that Shannon didn't get into subs for the money isn't quite accurate. From what I understand, yes, he started out doing subs for himself, but then he started a business. Any good business man intends to make money. He saw that he could make a f*ck ton of money and so he made a business. And he uses marketing to get the word out, like any salesman/marketer.

He also encourages you to read "Double Your Dating" by DeAngelo when using AM.

Again though, the bottom line should always be: will this product or service help me? Some of DeAngelo's stuff has helped some people I'm sure.

It's extremely obvious that Shannon made this business to make money or else everything would be free.

He did NOT however, search the internet for a hot niche as an internet marketer, and then say to himself "wow, making subliminals is an under served niche, I think I'll start researching that now for the sole purpose of making money."

He took his passion and made a business out of it. If you can't see the difference, then there's something wrong with your vision.

Obviously David D's stuff has helped millions of men or nobody would have bought anything from him besides his book. I bought everything he has ever made including all his marketing materials he's done as 'Eben Pagan' and with Wyatt Woodsmall.

David DeAngelo had no interest in meeting women, though he'll give a story saying other wise when he was going by the name DavidDeAngelo, it was only to get people to relate, so they'd buy. HIS WORDS NOT MINE

He was and is simply an internet marketer that saw there was money to be made selling dating advice, so he read what was available at the time, and then put together his own product.

He's an extremely wise marketer and I'll always go through his products.

Shannon recommended to read Double Your Dating, I'd recommend reading it too, but I would not recommend programming it into your brain.

If every pua was the exact same and they all did the exact same stuff in every situation and there was no variance at all whatsoever, THEN it would be a good idea to program their stuff into your brain, but they are all different, and they all get different results, so you'd have to be a complete fool to program one of their "methods" into your brain.

That would be like programming someones "method" of making money into your brain, when there's THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of different ways to make money, and what works for that guy, may not work for you. So while it would be good to know what that guy does to make money, it would be bad to program it into your brain.

For the second time though, if Shannon wants to build the sub, and you want to use it, my opinion shouldn't stop you or bring you down.

(06-21-2015, 11:51 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(06-21-2015, 10:45 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote:

(06-21-2015, 04:54 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: Sorry man but the idea that Shannon didn't get into subs for the money isn't quite accurate. From what I understand, yes, he started out doing subs for himself, but then he started a business. Any good business man intends to make money. He saw that he could make a f*ck ton of money and so he made a business. And he uses marketing to get the word out, like any salesman/marketer.

He also encourages you to read "Double Your Dating" by DeAngelo when using AM.

Again though, the bottom line should always be: will this product or service help me? Some of DeAngelo's stuff has helped some people I'm sure.

It's extremely obvious that Shannon made this business to make money or else everything would be free.

He did NOT however, search the internet for a hot niche as an internet marketer, and then say to himself "wow, making subliminals is an under served niche, I think I'll start researching that now for the sole purpose of making money."

He took his passion and made a business out of it. If you can't see the difference, then there's something wrong with your vision.

Obviously David D's stuff has helped millions of men or nobody would have bought anything from him besides his book. I bought everything he has ever made including all his marketing materials he's done as 'Eben Pagan' and with Wyatt Woodsmall.

David DeAngelo had no interest in meeting women, though he'll give a story saying other wise when he was going by the name DavidDeAngelo, it was only to get people to relate, so they'd buy. HIS WORDS NOT MINE

He was and is simply an internet marketer that saw there was money to be made selling dating advice, so he read what was available at the time, and then put together his own product.

He's an extremely wise marketer and I'll always go through his products.

Shannon recommended to read Double Your Dating, I'd recommend reading it too, but I would not recommend programming it into your brain.

If every pua was the exact same and they all did the exact same stuff in every situation and there was no variance at all whatsoever, THEN it would be a good idea to program their stuff into your brain, but they are all different, and they all get different results, so you'd have to be a complete fool to program one of their "methods" into your brain.

That would be like programming someones "method" of making money into your brain, when there's THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of different ways to make money, and what works for that guy, may not work for you. So while it would be good to know what that guy does to make money, it would be bad to program it into your brain.

For the second time though, if Shannon wants to build the sub, and you want to use it, my opinion shouldn't stop you or bring you down.

Well there's no need for personal attacks. I would also ask how you know Shannon never scoured the internet and found the niche. lol

I do agree with you, however, in that there is no one size fits all, magic bullet, or whatever. The question now I think is what SHOULD be in a sub?

In fact, this is bringing up my issue with SM 3 and the "anti-porn" programming in it.

What is the desired outcome of the sub? To get real, physical women in reality, however, watching porn does NOT eradicate that possibility. I've met many guys who were quite decent with women (laid every second weekend on average for the time I knew them) and they watched porn.

So, too, is the "hetero sexual male" clause in AM. The point of the program is to become a strong male, which has nothing to do with sexuality.

I think, if anything, we need to strip down the programs and get them more based in fundamentals if that makes sense. I also advocate strong reality-checks. In that a program should force you to question your beliefs and then solidify them or create new ones based on your results.

(06-21-2015, 12:30 PM)TheRealJustin Wrote: Well Shannon said he started with audible tracks saying affirmations and he just got into subs to help himself, and then over time it turned into a business. I'm sure he did research when trying to make it a business, I'm just saying that he did not get into creating subs for the sole purpose of creating a business. Like he did not just search the internet for a hot money making niche, find subs, and then his subliminal journey was born.

(06-21-2015, 10:45 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: When I say a pua sub is a bad idea I'm coming from Azflag's perspective of basically having Julien's current "method" programmed into your brain.

I do think though, that a pua sub would be a wonderful idea if it was just the universal basics ie: self love, self esteem, self acceptance, deservedness, courage, confidence, bettering and developing yourself, eating right, getting healthy, getting on your path and purpose, becoming more social, charismatic, non needy, outcome independent, giving yourself permission, assuming value, all the general fundamental universal stuff, would make a great sub that I would buy in a heart beat.

If the sub however is like wait this long to call when he does this, stand this way when this, escalate when this, do this when that, like all the technical crap, which can be extremely helpful, but it all varies person to person and situation to situation, a pua sub like that, where you're literally programming pua techniques and methods into your brain, I think that would be a bad idea and would do someone more harm than good.

(06-21-2015, 10:45 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: I didn't mean to insult you, sometimes I just don't know how to drive my point home without sounding like an asshole. I have trouble getting what's in my head out of my head.

(06-21-2015, 01:49 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(06-21-2015, 12:30 PM)TheRealJustin Wrote: Well Shannon said he started with audible tracks saying affirmations and he just got into subs to help himself, and then over time it turned into a business. I'm sure he did research when trying to make it a business, I'm just saying that he did not get into creating subs for the sole purpose of creating a business. Like he did not just search the internet for a hot money making niche, find subs, and then his subliminal journey was born.

Well I suppose, though even David D would have had SOME personal stake in the matter. I heard he was big on psychology, and that's what he mostly prattled on about in his videos wasn't it?

Bottom line is I don't think it was malicious. Sure he wanted to make money, maybe even DID search for the niche, found it, and capitalized on it, but farmers do the same thing with deciding what to plant and where. It's just human, and as such, I can't condemn him, especially since people gave him their money willingly. Like I said, wish I knew how to do the same lol.

(06-21-2015, 10:45 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: When I say a pua sub is a bad idea I'm coming from Azflag's perspective of basically having Julien's current "method" programmed into your brain.

I do think though, that a pua sub would be a wonderful idea if it was just the universal basics ie: self love, self esteem, self acceptance, deservedness, courage, confidence, bettering and developing yourself, eating right, getting healthy, getting on your path and purpose, becoming more social, charismatic, non needy, outcome independent, giving yourself permission, assuming value, all the general fundamental universal stuff, would make a great sub that I would buy in a heart beat.

If the sub however is like wait this long to call when he does this, stand this way when this, escalate when this, do this when that, like all the technical crap, which can be extremely helpful, but it all varies person to person and situation to situation, a pua sub like that, where you're literally programming pua techniques and methods into your brain, I think that would be a bad idea and would do someone more harm than good.

Well this is a complicated issue too, though. I mean, you can be all those things but if you stay home 24/7, you won't get any action. So, I understand wanting a nudge in the right direction when it comes to actions to take.

Especially for someone like me who's never had any experience with women, I'm totally lost. I got a number from a girl a while ago, and haven't called. Why? Because I'm self-validated, that's why! lol. See the problem?

If we take it that a) People are turning to subs for help and assistance and b) most of these people are also inexperienced then we can conclude that they will also need to know WHAT to do with the tools that are given to them, rather than just give them validation, outcome independence and what have you. Because I can tell you, it's great to have, but it leaves you isolated from others when you don't know how to use it for your own goals.

It's very hard to explain but believe me when I say: I have NO problems with caring whether I get the girl or not. But that alone hasn't gotten me one yet. I'd much rather get the girl (my goal) and be messed up like most regular guys out there, than be an "alpha" and not get the girl.

If my goal were to simply be alpha, I probably wouldn't care, but my goal from a program like SM was to get women, and that it did not deliver. So I must question it's effectiveness.

Just like if you bought a beautiful car that wouldn't start. If your intention was to have a beautiful car to show off in your driveway, then that's all that matters, but if you intended to use it as a vehicle to get around in, then you'd be wondering what the f*ck was wrong with it, right? lol

I mean I don't think it's unreasonable to not only want the results we're looking for, but to also try and assist in finding them.

Heck, if you go to the mechanic and he's confused about what's wrong with the car, you'll try and help him, won't you?

"Oh, could it be the engine?" lol.

Maybe a sub programming you to use Julien's "method" would be a bad thing, but it would be a change at least. We already know that the vast majority (correct me if I'm wrong) of SM users have not seen the results they wanted, or have not seen an increase in sex (SEXmagnet, ok?). Thus, we have to explore that direction.

When I was approaching women, did I keep doing what didn't work? Sure, but I also tried new things. In the end, you have to move towards what realistically looks like a solution; modelling (I know Tony Robbins talks about this quite a bit) is an effective strategy. AND, if we KNOW a "method" works, why wouldn't we use it?

(06-21-2015, 10:45 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: I didn't mean to insult you, sometimes I just don't know how to drive my point home without sounding like an asshole. I have trouble getting what's in my head out of my head.

It's all good, I have the same problem sometimes.

(06-22-2015, 10:49 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: I think sex magnet fails for so many guys because it's focus is scattered all over the place with being harder, lasting longer, performing better, being more horny, all sorts of stuff that is just irrelevant. It needs to be just solely focused on getting it in the little wet hole. All it should really be is a bunch of statements like "I now have hot sex with gorgeous willing women every day." the subconscious WILL take care of the rest.

(06-22-2015, 06:51 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(06-22-2015, 10:49 AM)TheRealJustin Wrote: I think sex magnet fails for so many guys because it's focus is scattered all over the place with being harder, lasting longer, performing better, being more horny, all sorts of stuff that is just irrelevant. It needs to be just solely focused on getting it in the little wet hole. All it should really be is a bunch of statements like "I now have hot sex with gorgeous willing women every day." the subconscious WILL take care of the rest.

I don't know man, will it? And will it be the right route? Or will someone end up like me and only see prostitutes as a worthwhile endeavor?

I'd pay for a program to help me game real women, I wouldn't pay for one that made me go all "any hole that takes me/is the least effort", because I truly would like to learn game, but at this point, it seems like a foolish endeavor when compared to, say, making money.

Make the money and just hire out for sex, seems so logical and efficient to me, however, if I had a program that would give me the skill to get pretty much any woman I wanted, I'd pay for that instead. Make sense?

(08-28-2015, 02:10 AM)Jakeb203 Wrote: We need a sub to DO.

SM/WM's target is to change you into a man who is magnetically attractive to women, BUT it does not instructs you to actually ACT.

You can spend ten thousand hours at home, thinking and realizing that you have became magnetically attractive to women, but it does not change the fact that you STILL lack experience with women. In the long term, yes I agree you should become a person who does not seek for too much external stimulation, but the other side of the story, if you look at those who actually got good with women (even if they are not completely attractive to women), it comes from STACKS OF EXPERIENCE. Which comes from years of approaching, seducing, and connecting with women, AND they have made it into a deliberate effort.

I personally have got laid this way. Yes right now I don't need to try too hard to get women if I do want to get laid, but without prior experiences of actually going out, practicing talking and seducing women, I would still be a virgin.

Words to conclude is that : yes, becoming a naturally seductive man is important, and can be many men's end goal, but to actually know HOW to seduce a girl requires intense level of action taking. Every night you go out there, TAKE ACTIONS, debrief on things that you have done wrong, and continously improve your skills with women. It's good to be a magnet who says whatever to get laid because of inner game, BUT taking actions can vastly make results happen faster. That's why we need this sub.

Quote:and pua can be used in relationship very well...because if a girl has fallen in love with you because of pua she will still love you if you continue to be what you were when she met you, the problem is most guys change during relationship ... of course if your knowledge about pua is only superficial and not deep enough you wont be able to hold the girl...