Subliminal Talk

Shannon,

As I was reading through the sales pages trying to compare WM and SM I kept wondering whether there is any reason that anyone should choose WM over SM. Even for people with other priorities, SM simply comes across as a much more powerful program with a greater number of both general and specific end benefits for a man. Overall, my impression is that SM leads to greater personal growth and development when compared to WM.

I absolutely believe there is a place for WM. I am concerned about running SM because of the impact it may have on my professional life and my ability to maintain meaningful relationships with women. I don't want every woman I see and meet to become a sex toy for me to use and discard. The position I see for WM is to be exactly like SM in terms of both general and specific benefits except for the aggressive pursuit and single-minded focus on sexual conquest.

For example,;
I want to attract women for whatever type of relationship I find appropriate (sexual, platonic, romantic and every variation and combination of the three) but I'm still happy for women to pursue me purely for sex if that's all they desire.

I want to have a large social circle including both women and men who value my company and time but I also want to be able to quench my sexual thirst when I see a beautiful woman in a short tight dress and heels.

I want to enamour a group of people with my conversation but I also want to completely satisfy a woman in bed sexually.

I want to attract beautiful single women into my life but I also want to filter out women who want to get pregnant, have STDs, etc.

Some people lead lives where focusing on satisfying the raw reptilian desire for sex is acceptable. Other people lead lives where the complex mammalian social systems need to be navigated tactfully and the politics of sex and sexual desirability are equally important whilst satisfying the raw reptilian desire for sex. And based on my interpretation of what the two programs are trying to achieve, at a very basic level this is the difference between SM and WM respectively.

What is your intention with the WM and SM split? Is it just a matter of sales copy or are the differences between the current incarnations of WM and SM deeper? Is it time for a WM update?

Its a different vibe, have you read this:
http://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-s...and-WM-2-0

My goals are somewhat similar to yours. The way I see it now is I'll run SM until I get those results it promises, and after that I'll expand my options with WM. It seems to me WM promises "SM and more", and SM is plenty hard in and of itself. So I'll need to be proficient with SM first.

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Btw

(07-20-2014, 06:23 PM)ffaux Wrote: [ -> ]The position I see for WM is to be exactly like SM in terms of both general and specific benefits except for the aggressive pursuit and single-minded focus on sexual conquest.

Those words "sexual conquest" jumped out at me. I know it increases sex drive, but I'd still hope its your choice if you want to see women as conquest or not. I'm actually hoping it to further internalize the acceptance of my own sexual nature, that I have a lot to offer in that way and that women desire sex and just that sexual connection with me. That I'll become so comfortable and strong with it, it'll easily guide and allow them to go there with me too, if they want to. So its a mutual benefit situation. But yeah, the single-minded focus on sex will probably get old at some point, hence WM.

(07-21-2014, 06:13 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]Its a different vibe, have you read this:
http://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-s...and-WM-2-0

My goals are somewhat similar to yours. The way I see it now is I'll run SM until I get those results it promises, and after that I'll expand my options with WM. It seems to me WM promises "SM and more", and SM is plenty hard in and of itself. So I'll need to be proficient with SM first.

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I don't completely agree with that, the overall goal for WM2 is bigger than SM3 but it doesn't mean it's harder to do.
I read somewhere Shannon said: it is easy for people not so comfortable with sex to do WM2 first (virgin or fear based). I think because the WM2 sub is less "hardcore" in the short term, it's more diluted so it's easier to approach it without getting hit by a lot of resistance.

The more I learn about myself the less I think SM3 is good for me. There are some part of it that I would still like to have like the "bed mastery stuff". But what I think is not good for me is the raw sex behavior, at least for me right now (I might change over time).

(07-21-2014, 10:15 PM)maniac360 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't completely agree with that, the overall goal for WM2 is bigger than SM3 but it doesn't mean it's harder to do.

I didn't mean its harder to listen to, I meant the full effects are probably harder to realize, or it'll take more run throughs.

I'd think WM is supposed to attract a larger audience of women to you anyway, and with each woman you'd get to choose what you want with her. If each time you choose you want sex, then WM becomes SM. So WM's result kind of includes SM, and more. And usually more is harder/slower to accomplish than less.

As far as i can make out from reading the journals and posts is that SM3 should only be done by confident player types that are not afraid of raw passions or what they can lead to. WM2 like you say would include SM3 by giving you the choice of sex or not but more on your terms. This is much more acceptable for my 'comfort zone'

(07-21-2014, 10:15 PM)maniac360 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-21-2014, 06:13 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]Its a different vibe, have you read this:
http://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-s...and-WM-2-0

My goals are somewhat similar to yours. The way I see it now is I'll run SM until I get those results it promises, and after that I'll expand my options with WM. It seems to me WM promises "SM and more", and SM is plenty hard in and of itself. So I'll need to be proficient with SM first.

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I don't completely agree with that, the overall goal for WM2 is bigger than SM3 but it doesn't mean it's harder to do.
I read somewhere Shannon said: it is easy for people not so comfortable with sex to do WM2 first (virgin or fear based). I think because the WM2 sub is less "hardcore" in the short term, it's more diluted so it's easier to approach it without getting hit by a lot of resistance.

The more I learn about myself the less I think SM3 is good for me. There are some part of it that I would still like to have like the "bed mastery stuff". But what I think is not good for me is the raw sex behavior, at least for me right now (I might change over time).

I too thought about what would be better for me. My main concerns regarding WM is the absence of OGSF and the scarcity of user journals. SM3 has OGSF and NSFM and both are awesome. Aside from those concerns, on the other hand, the bullet points for WM are simply awesome. But is there a journal where at least 60 % of those points have been achieved? Has anyone ever done a second run? Will the sex even happen with WM for a virgin/fear based person if it isn't that sex oriented as SM3?

Just my cents, but I really don't know what to expect from either of both. :-)

You might have missed some WM2 journal, here is a list:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YQc7...rIweKvRgLs

edit:
I have read almost all SM3 and WM2 journals and I think both have the same amount of fails/succeeds. Even if it's never really an off/on switch like fail/succeed. What I have notice is that almost everyone who have succeed with SM2/3 didn't care afterward because it wasn't what they were looking for. But maybe it was needed for them see that who knows.
The last one who did SM3 and "succeed" reacted exactly the same way.

(07-22-2014, 11:40 AM)maniac360 Wrote: [ -> ]You might have missed some WM2 journal, here is a list:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YQc7...rIweKvRgLs

edit:
I have read almost all SM3 and WM2 journals and I think both have the same amount of fails/succeeds. Even if it's never really an off/on switch like fail/succeed. What I have notice is that almost everyone who have succeed with SM2/3 didn't care afterward because it wasn't what they were looking for. But maybe it was needed for them see that who knows.
The last one who did SM3 and "succeed" reacted exactly the same way.

Thanks for the link, that could have saved me a lot of time earlier this month I read most of them during the last months, if not all of them, but it can't hurt to check them again if I missed something.

I don't know what to make of the journals, which is why I have to try the subs myself, I guess. Currently I prefer SM though, because of the OGSF/NSFM part, but I have a few days left to decide what sub I try out.

(07-21-2014, 06:13 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]Those words "sexual conquest" jumped out at me. I know it increases sex drive, but I'd still hope its your choice if you want to see women as conquest or not....But yeah, the single-minded focus on sex will probably get old at some point, hence WM.

My understanding is that when you do a program like SM it focuses you completely on achieving its outcomes hence the words "sexual conquest" that I intended to mean a series of sexual encounters.

(07-21-2014, 06:13 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]Its a different vibe, have you read this:
http://subliminal-talk.com/Thread-What-s...and-WM-2-0

Yeah, that and other posts. I've asked about the difference before and been referred to a few posts by Shannon. I understand the "raw sexual alpha" versus "playful social alpha" but I wanted to get some insight into why Shannon made that distinction and separation in his mind and then created two programs.


The more I try to articulate my thoughts the clearer it becomes that I believe SM is too focused on sex whereas WM is too unfocused.

Sex isn't an appropriate outcome in every situation because of our complex social systems. Even so, regardless of whether we act on that goal in any given situation, sex and sexual desire are at the core of all inter sexual relationships.

Although sex and sexual desire is always present in the background in inter sexual relationships and sex is always the ultimate goal, sex is not always the only goal. For example, platonic friendship might be the goal at work or with a friend's girlfriend/boyfriend but only because it is inappropriate to act on the underlying sexual desire and goal of sex, not because it's absent. Nor should you want it to be absent. With tact and self-control, being sexually desirable gives social status and political power.

What we need in WM is a program that focuses on sex and sexual desire much like SM but recognises the complexity of human relationships, the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of acting on that sexual focus depending on context and that there are other goals above sex that are equally valid in inter sexual relationships.

Right now I feel that WM is focused on making beautiful single women available to you and helping you socialise with them and SM is focused on sex, sex and only sex. In my view, the first is a little bit pointless without an outcome and doesn't go far enough to make it comparable in value to SM and the second is far too narrowly focused to be appropriate for many peoples life situations.

(07-22-2014, 11:24 PM)ffaux Wrote: [ -> ]I understand the "raw sexual alpha" versus "playful social alpha" but I wanted to get some insight into why Shannon made that distinction and separation in his mind and then created two programs.

The more I try to articulate my thoughts the clearer it becomes that I believe SM is too focused on sex whereas WM is too unfocused.

Actually, if Shannon were to combine these two programs, what do you think the focus of the program would be? What would the manifestations try to manifest? I think it'd just be like WM2 is now: manifest abundant beautiful women, with whom you can do as you please. And then added all the sexual stuff from SM3, except they wouldn't be as potent then because they lost the focus (OE). And the women that approached you would not necessarily be interested in seducing you.

(07-22-2014, 11:24 PM)ffaux Wrote: [ -> ]What we need in WM is a program that focuses on sex and sexual desire much like SM but recognises the complexity of human relationships, the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of acting on that sexual focus depending on context and that there are other goals above sex that are equally valid in inter sexual relationships.

Right now I feel that WM is focused on making beautiful single women available to you and helping you socialise with them and SM is focused on sex, sex and only sex. In my view, the first is a little bit pointless without an outcome and doesn't go far enough to make it comparable in value to SM and the second is far too narrowly focused to be appropriate for many peoples life situations.

I have had the same thoughts you're writing, but I think we're seeing too much into these 6-stage programs. Although the program has a clear identity like SM, or WM, its still just a collection of modules that all aim to enhance some part of your personality or deal with some limitation you have, not a complete personality replacement. SM comprises modules such as OGSF, confidence and self-validation related stuff, dealing with sexual issues, sexual performance, eye seduction, attracting women and making them want to seduce you, etc etc etc. The combined effect of enhancing all these parts of you is that you'll appear a more sexual person overall. And then WM includes modules that are more about socializing and relaxed enjoyment than sex.

It's like a class in school: this one teaches math, so you won't be hearing much biology in that class. Or cooking: you add some ingredient in there, but that's just adding to the taste that's already in there.

I'd think you already know what's appropriate, right and ethical for you, and that there are other goals above sex, without extra classes in it (subliminal or otherwise). I wouldn't think SM3 includes modules to directly oppose those or somehow clear those beliefs away, except by way of OGSF. And GSF is just covering what you really think is right and appropriate.

Of course I'm just guessing out lout, It'd be interesting to hear Shannon's take on this and on what it'd take to combine these programs. To combine physics and religion classes, to add chili without covering every other taste. The WM2 desription states: "The ability to shift yourself between serious, playful, sexual, and heartfelt, at will, smoothly and effectively, and back to any other of those states again.". I'm thinking running the stuff in SM3 before WM2 would make in much easier to enter that sexual state at will, and have it be that much more intense. Then WM2 would presumably magnify all those other states, and ease the shifting between them? The manifestations would prolly conflict, could they be solved in some way? What is there that conflicts? Auras?

(07-23-2014, 02:27 AM)LionKing Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, if Shannon were to combine these two programs, what do you think the focus of the program would be? What would the manifestations try to manifest? I think it'd just be like WM2 is now: manifest abundant beautiful women, with whom you can do as you please. And then added all the sexual stuff from SM3, except they wouldn't be as potent then because they lost the focus (OE). And the women that approached you would not necessarily be interested in seducing you.

What I was trying to express in my last post is that I believe the focus should always be sex. I can't think of a situation in which I would prefer the outcome with an attractive woman to be not having sex. Can you?

I then continued to explain that, although I believe everyone (man and woman) would prefer the outcome with an attractive person of the opposite sexuality to be sex, I believe a large group of people accept that allowing sex to eventuate isn't appropriate in all contexts.

Having throughout about it a bit more after reading your post I'm beginning to wonder if the genius of WM isn't specifically in its lack of focus.

A subliminal can have a lot of influence on your behaviour. For example, if my understanding is correct, in SM2, people changed their behaviour to only have sex with a woman once and then lost motivation to continue having sex with that person. This prompted Shannon to modify SM3 to suggest that people should continue having sex with the same person.

By focusing WM on manifesting beautiful women and making sure you meet them, the ultimate outcome is left for the individual to seek out. WM supplies opportunities for the rest of a person's life but then it's up to the person to take those opportunities in the direction that they feel is relevant for their present situation.

Given this realisation and this discussion we've had, my questions for Shannon now are: What is your intention with the WM and SM split? What specifically does WM try to achieve? What have you included in WM to achieve its goals?

So I joined a long time ago, but not before women magnet first came out. I actually joined when SM first came out. Basically what it came down to was that people first requested WM first then later requested SM.

It wasn't his plan to create them to be split. As far as I know, he also built the become irresistible to whatever you want series before he created WM. You might ask why he would have WM if he had those series before hand.

tldr it's because people requested it and he delivered.

I want to revisit this conversation because I still think there's value in being clear on what value these subliminal provide for men; both for our sakes as customers and for Shannon as he develops these further.

I found this comment by Geodude really interesting:

(10-26-2014, 05:21 PM)Geodude Wrote: [ -> ]Took me a while, but I no longer base my self-worth on getting laid. If that's the only thing that this sub does, then it's worth more than $500. I feel like a 100ton weight is off my back. I've been letting go of a lot of BS beliefs and I'm finally getting the results I want. I don't know if this is due to SM3 or deep introspection, but I'm definitely happy.

From personal reflection I've come to believe that mens' insecurities around women fall in two distinct, broad categories:

1. insecurity around getting laid, and
   
2. insecurity around being popular.
   

Interestingly, it appears to me that SM and WM have naturally evolved into addressing those two categories of insecurities respectively as Shannon developed them in response to user requests.

Personally, for example, I am much more attracted to WM because my insecurities are around being popular. And as per the quote, I can assume that Geodude had insecurities around getting laid (hence basic his self-worth on it) which was addressed by SM.

How does the reflection above resonate with everyone else?

^^I like it. I started thinking about it again too, and what stood out now was that SM seems a lot more success-oriented, where the man is very direct and goes after what he wants, whereas WM seems to rely more heavily on the manifestations and there being this constant influx of beautiful women, so the user can be a bit vague, hard-to-get and act like a passive selector.

I've never really cared about being that popular in a larger scale myself, I'm more interested in just being able to do I want, say what I want and go where I want. I want to be able to have strong one-to-one connections, or in smaller groups. Let's say if there's a party, I'm more interested in being able to go in, make a few friends and leave with a hot girl, rather than to be the host of the party who mingles with everyone and plays the social politics of it all.

SM3 is pretty well documented with the details of what's in it, but it seems WM2 is much more vaque.. there's deservedness and abundance and stuff, lots & lots of manifestation... It'll be hard to decide if I'll benefit more from WM2 or 2nd round of SM3 next. I like the idea of hitting all angles, but the general social popularity stuff will probably already get handled with 2*sm3

SM will likely be too intense (loaded) for some women so it might be harder to get to spend time with them, but then again it'd expect WM to make it very easy for "time wasters" to "use" you for fun & flirting even if you actually wanted sex.

(07-23-2014, 05:07 PM)ffaux Wrote: [ -> ]What I was trying to express in my last post is that I believe the focus should always be sex. I can't think of a situation in which I would prefer the outcome with an attractive woman to be not having sex. Can you?

Maybe for people who are in relationships, or just for getting along with women when your logistics aren't that great.. for women you work with, or are happily taken and such. Idk, IMO if sex isn't even an option in the background its not too exiting. Oh right, and for having lots of social proof and for feeling popular like you said.