09-16-2013, 10:28 AM
Another toxic "friend" gone. This one's convinced I'm unhinged and need immediate and intense psychotherapy because all that science I linked is totally quack and her unsubstantiated claims that too much E directly and for the long term increases T just HAS to be right!! CUZ SOME DOCTORS SAID SO!!
Abigail: Meh. Even if and when I ever see a doctor I doubt I'll go on conventional HRT. Spiro has some insane health implications...
Audrey: On a 1-2% risk... But still that's why you have an endo... To monitor that stuff... An there other pill options... Also for something so important seems far riskier to do it on your own...
Abigail: That's understated by a lot. And I've done substantial research into both conventional regimes and many many many less conventional herbs and other drugs. What I'm using atm has virtually no risk.
Audrey: Btw, read your post... Seems like one of your sisters is struggling with you... Sorry to hear that. Also, got to say, an don't take this the wrong way, but you've got to stop making excuses for yourself... We've got a very similar situation... Both live with our parents... Each have a difficult parent... Both of us are unemployed... I think we're both in school... An perhaps I do look more fem... But I'm not so sure about that... We both have maintain our bodies.. I'd say you've an advantage with whatever form of HRT you're on... But seriously you can't let those things stop you. Worrying over that... That's why your failing... Whether you'd admit it or not... And although I'm not much older than you... barely 2 years... Just trying to give ya some advice and also help ya in today's difficult world and although you don't need someone else to be hard on you... Someone who is in a very similar situation being a tiny bit hard on ya may be more helpful!
Abigail: Not in school atm... Ran out of money and although I do like it it's not quite totally my thing... just not enough passion in it. I do plan to finish anyways though and maybe find some way to use it. And what excuses? I told her she's being toxic and I don't need that. My new status is just informing anyone else who wants to be toxic that now's the time to go down in a blaze of glory.
Audrey: Yes well, while you're dabbling around with that, doing research that has little to no empirical/scientific backing... Getting results that may be mixed at best.. Remember, the doctors are the experts, not you. So unless you're getting a phd in that stuff it's really best left to the pros... Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what to do, just encouraging proper procedure....
Abigail: Uh-huh. Hey, if the koolaid and tea helps you sleep at night... (and yes, this is a political reference)
Abigail: Given that it was a medical encyclopedia that caused me to self-hypnotise myself as a toddler I have a VERY healthy skepticism of doctors.
Audrey: Excuses for not getting a job... Over how you look ect ect... I get the struggles just as much as you do... But you can't let that stop you... Living how your living doesn't seem ideal for you... Worse than I am, and even my situation isn't ideal.... And we both have our reasons for not being able to be out on our own... Different I'm sure... But for my part it's because I fucked up financially years ago (over $15k in credit card debt) and I'm still recovering from it legally... if it wasn't for that and my lack of job of course, but that should be remedied soon I hope, so if it wasn't for that I'd be on my own....
Abigail: Yeah... well. Honestly I don't even want a job. I do need to figure out how to get some seed money to continue researching making my dieting stuff but that's what I want to do. And then some seed money to develop it into actual products and then sell them... That's what I want to do.
Abigail: Getting a job would end that. 4-6 hours getting ready for work, work for 4-8 hours a day at least, eat, wash up, sleep, get up and do it again.
Abigail: Can't ask my parents to help with it, even if I promised them a share. They would never think I could make it work.
Audrey: Skeptic of the medical system... They are there to help you... Not make it worse.... And again self diagnosis isn't very good... Self hypno... That's a risk... How do you know you didn't mess up...just can't take matters into ones hands like that...
Abigail: the self hypno is how I hid for around 2 decades. Did it as a toddler. With part of my subconscious forced into maintaining it. Really was a nasty piece of work. Nearly led to me killing myself through inactivity towards the end of it.
Audrey: 4-6hrs to get ready?!?!? Jeez girl how in the hell does it take that long?!?! No tgirl takes that long unless they doing something wrong all the time or doing too much! 4-6hts on a daily basis is insane....
Abigail: hair.
Abigail: at least 3 hours of that is spent on removing hair.
Audrey: You have got be exaggerating!
Abigail: as it is I still always miss something somewhere.
Abigail: LOL... Wish I was... But there's not an inch of this body that doesn't have at least a dozen or so hairs growing out of it.
Abigail: and they grow in all kinds of crazy directions
Audrey: Dude I'm in the shower for 30min... 45 tops... Spend 30min or so doing body lotion and makeup... All n all usually 1.5hrs to get ready
Audrey: Yeah I get that
Abigail: that'd give you no more than 20 minutes 30 minutes at best to shave anything you're going to shave. either you don't have much hair or you don't even bother shaving most of it.
Abigail: or it all grows in basically only a few directions so you're not constantly going over the same area from 6 different directions.
Audrey: I have body hair too... And I take care of my chest, tummy, face daily... Legs, back, arms, bum, crotch on a rotation as the growth cycle is different for each area.... Seldom do I have to do it all at once and certainly not daily! Even a natal girl would not do it daily
Abigail: Legs and about 3/4ths of my arms I could get away with every other day. Groin up and down a quarter of each arm HAS to be daily. And that's a massive reduction in growth rate compared to how it was.
Abigail: Before my herbal regimen I could shave that everything in the morning and by noon look like a gorilla.
Audrey: Yeah exaggeration...
Abigail: LOL... It really isn't...
Audrey: Hardly a gorilla... So much for your realist ideology haha
Abigail: Think what you like I obviously can't prove it now!
Abigail: Oh, I could prove I could look like a gorilla but you'd have to give me a couple weeks.
Abigail: with the obvious exception of the front of my neck, which has been lasered off.
Audrey: Regardless 4-6 hrs is insane... Either you need to kick yourself in the ass and move faster or your lolly gagging during that time...
Audrey: Exactly, a few weeks... Without any maintenance!
Abigail: Used to take me even longer... But trying to get the shaving down below 3 hours is proving impossible.
Abigail: TO LOOK LIKE A GORILLA!!!!
Abigail: I'd totally look like a hairy ass man in 3 days or less
Audrey: About the 14-16 hour mark I'd have take a razor again to my face/neck if I were to stay out in public
Audrey: Just because I feel the growth and stubble that bad....
Abigail: heh. sounds about like where I am now. Maybe a bit worse. Back at Uni, I went to a BYU, and we had strict facial hair rules... I shaved IMMEDIATELY before trying to take a test and was told I needed to shave before taking my test.
Abigail: I AM NOT KIDDING YOU
Audrey: Then your technique is flawed... No one should be taking that long to shave or get ready... Sounds worse than someone who has OCD...
Abigail: and that's facial hair, which is actually growing slower than my torso!
Abigail: So how many directions does a one inch patch of your hair grow in?
Audrey: You, of all people, a realist, should realize this...
Abigail: If it is I sure hell haven't found anything better.
Abigail: At least 4 here. And that's in the more tame regions. Some regions it's as many as ten.
Audrey: And again this is where having, what you called conventional HRT, would be better for you... Controlling or curbing that growth better...
Audrey: My body grows in every which direction...
Abigail: Doubtful. Spearmint has been clinically proven more effective at minimizing hair growth than any of the prescription anti androgens. Not at decreasing serum T though... But that's part of what the chinese skullcap helps fill in for.
Abigail: I'd be very curious to get tested to find out where my serum t is...
Audrey: Hon, I'm sorry, you've got some underlying issues going on there... This is where a therapist would come in... Your in denial about it, probably stubborn too lol... And hell for all you know your body could be producing more T than you know because if your body produces to much E or has too much E it gets converted into T... So that could happening to you without you knowing since you've not gotten blood tests to check your levels....
Abigail: I also wish I could get access to herb research that's currently locked behind "pay me to open me" doors.
Abigail: LOL... E does NOT EVER get converted back to T. That's a one way street my friend.
Audrey: Yes it does
Audrey: Whom ever told you that or wherever you read, is wrong that is fact
Audrey: The body will convert it to T if there is too much E
Abigail: Uhuh. I ain't EVER seen a steroidogenesis chart with arrows pointing back to T from E.
Abigail: but hey, I'll humor you and see if I can find ANYTHING from a remotely reputably source that says it does happen.
Audrey: Yea and it seems like you've not spoke to doctors too...
Abigail: Right... Doctors... taught and paid to sell you drugs for big pharma.
Abigail: anyway, I'm looking. This may take a while so sit back and relax.
Audrey: Dr's are more than just a place to scripts from...
Abigail: I'm afraid my experience with doctors leads me to greatly distrust them. They're always treating symptoms and not even bothering searching for causes.
Abigail: But quit distracting me! I'm studying here!
Audrey: Oh great your a conspiracy theorist too... Lol your almost too much
Audrey: Hope your not a hypochondriac too
Abigail: It's only theory when it's not playing out in front of your very eyes...
Audrey: Lack of trust and faith in a dr to do their job... I'd say you've seen the wrong dr's
Abigail: And no. I'm quite healthy right now thank you. It's taken a lot of work and a lot of study and a lot of experimentation that was at times a little risky, but I've finally gotten pretty damn healthy. No thanks to any doctors who only wanted to drug me up for various symptoms and not treat any underlying cause.
Audrey: Like I said you've got some serious unhealthy underlying issues going on....
Abigail: Nope. I just stopped drinking the tea and koolaid and learned a bit too much.
Audrey: Bbaaahhh, I'm ignorant about a great deal however your ignorance is far exceeding my own lol... It's great you're physically healthy now, but I'd say mentally you've got a long way to go... You seem rather stable mentally hormone wise but in a lot of other areas quite unstable...
Abigail: The ONLY thing I'm seeing about E becoming T AT ALL is some stupid comment on Susan's.
Audrey: Haha if that were the case hon, you'd have an advanced degree of some sorts maybe even a dr yourself
Abigail: And otherwise there's a smattering of people asking elsewhere and being told that's a joke. And as far as scholar goes........ total blank. Lots and lots about T to E. But totally NOTHING the opposite way.
Audrey: So your short amounts of research didn't pay off... Which is sad... However, since the doubter in you would tell me where is my proof when I quote what I've heard dr's tell me and what I've heard friends WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH IT have told me, word of m...See More
Nicole: Audrey are you talking about PCOS? my daughter and cousin have this and the doctor told us her estrogen was being converted to testosterone.
Abigail: aromatase doesn't convert back to testosterone by ANY research I've ever seen... Third and fourth links don't even mention this at all, first is just a stupid form thing that means nothing really and the second seems to indicate it MIGHT happen as a result of a negative feedback loop but even that looks rather... odd... to try to read it in that light.
Abigail: @ Nicole: Ah, now THAT is a different beast altogether... and... I'm afraid the doctor was oversimplifying something far more complex than that.
Abigail: There's no way I can even begin to go into what's actually going on with PCOS in this setting though.
Abigail: If it actually worked that way why aren't the doctors just stuffing trans men full of estrogen instead of prescribing usually just testosterone and occasionally an ANTI AROMATASE
Abigail: And noooo. MOST steroidogenesis is a process of breaking more complex chains down to simpler chains. there's two very major total dead ends. Estriol for females and dihydrotestosterone for males. Once it reaches either of those there is NO going back to ANYTHING else. And once a steroid has been aromatized to an estrogen it can't ever be an androgen ever again. and once progesterone has become an androgen it can never ever become progesterone again. and once... You clearly have ZERO understanding of how steroidogenesis works.
Abigail: Ah! HERE'S one that does make sense! "If a distinct increase in serum estradiol is sustained for approximately 36 hours (1), a positive feedback becomes manifest, this promote the excretion of GnRH results in LH surge that causes testosterone production to increase temporary, after that the level drop back to normal. When steady level of serum estradial is maintained, and if the level is sufficient to manifest as negative feedback, then the secretion of GnRH will be suppressed (2) , result in lower LH level which reduce testosterone production."
Abigail: ok, I can buy that one. it's only temporary though...
Abigail: But it doesn't really matter anyways, I'm not using any form of human estrogen, I'm using a plant-source estrogen mimic which strongly binds and behaves even more strongly than estradiol in certain ways while not behaving at all like it in other ways. There's lots of research on the chemicals in the extract I'm using and I have read all of it. The things I'm still learning about it now are things no one else has actually put together coherently before... Like that it's actually got a 3-beta-HSD inhibitor in it. That's a very specifically targeted anti-androgen btw.
Abigail: Oh. Also found out it's great for preventing alzheimers
Abigail: that was a pretty nifty find
Abigail: ask your doc when you finally see one if any of the stuff I'm saying makes ANY sense at all, don't mention that we're talking about herbs though because 99% of doctors are conditioned to reject herbs outright by the corporate masters.
Abigail: actually you know what. don't mention it's about herbs until AFTER he's talked for a while. if he talks. that should prove to you that docs are conditioned to sell only big pharma
Audrey: .... Blah like talking to a brick wall... Your research to me is meaningless with out scientific, empirical, medical backing! I've credited two empirical sources possibly a third... I cannot recall right now and... And by you not finding what I could find in those tells me you didn't read closely enough... And your lack of faith in docs and conspiracy that they all want to feed big pharma is disturbing... It's medically unethical to just prescribe drugs... They are the expert for a reason. It's nice to do your own research but save the big decision for the pros. And unless you empirical proof, meaning from scholars, your knowledge is meaningless and you just come off as some smart ass teenage who thinks they know it all! I know I don't know it all, but what I do stand by is the scientific method!
Abigail: Extract for me the meaningful parts. Please. enlighten me. The first link doesn't count, it's just a patient waiver piece of bs nonsense that somehow managed to slip in at least one massive overstatement for the purposes of scare tactics.
Abigail: granted I only paid attention to the remotely related parts so I could have missed some other blatant bs.
Audrey: It is not non-bs that is an informed consent form!!! Dr's medically bound to them! They talk of the risks doing this! It's flat out proof! This CAN or WILL happen! Good lord I feel like I'm talking to a child....
Abigail: No you're talking to someone who's more informed than that consent form... but let's pretend that piece of paper means something. now lets find out HOW this happens... So... How does this happen?
Audrey: Nicole, I wasn't specifically looking for that, just I know too much of one hormone can product the opposite. It works both ways, its not exactly healthy for you... Can come with serious medical side effects. Which is why HRT is best left to the professionals. I'd never tell someone not to do what they need to do but I wouldn't encourage it either!
Abigail: ... Too much P could theoretically produce more T and E. Too much T could quite probably produce more E. But too much E?? Just shuts everything down eventually.
Abigail: I didn't say too much E didn't have it's risk. But there's a difference between a real scientifically and medically proven risk and nonsense scare tactics.
Abigail: But please. Enlighten me. Which of those other links describes what's happening to make T from E.
Abigail: That second link certainly doesn't look remotely accredited to me though...
Abigail: A wealth of articles referring to how large amounts of estradiol can spike GnRH: http://scholar.google.com/scholar...
estradiol increase gnrh - Google Scholar
Abigail: accredited link between the GnRH surge and an LH surge: http://endo.endojournals.org/content/129/3/1175.short
Abigail: a VERY loose link between LH surge and testosterone rising: http://endo.endojournals.org/content/101/2/421.short
The Influence of Mating and Related Stimuli on Plasma Levels of Luteinizing Hormone, Follicle...
endo.endojournals.org
Male rats were exposed to several stimuli associated with mating, and their rest...See More
Abigail: many articles stating strong link with high sustained E2 and GnRH suppression: http://scholar.google.com/scholar...
estradiol gnrh negative feedback - Google Scholar
Abigail: and obviously if gnrh releases lh, then no gnrh == no lh
Abigail: no lh == no testosterone.
Abigail: Please by all means find something to debunk ALL of that.
Abigail: mind you it must be accredited.
Abigail: honestly the causality for the brief surge is far more far fetched than the one for a permanent depression after.
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And meanwhile side exhibit:
Abigail
You know. I get really tired of people telling me I don't know anything because I lack this or that or this other qualification and then turning around and proving their own total ignorance about what they're telling me I don't know about. You want to tell me I'm wrong about something I've already thoroughly researched? You'd better be prepared to back that up with something meaty and don't expect me to back it up for you with very circumstantial reference material at best which only amounts to telling me that MAYBE there's a research point there if I felt it merited enough consideration to bother myself with... And then the only thing I find that backs you up even a little IS circumstantial AND nothing relevant?! Yeah. Put up or shut up.
Same goes for things I'm actually experiencing for real or have put myself through in the past. Actually, with that there ain't even room for putting up. I'm the one living my life. Those're MY experiencing we're discussing. Sorry. YOU AIN'T GOT A CLUE!
Like that dude on the upworthy link I posted moments ago, if I say something, it's because I KNOW something. I don't know if he has any credentials to say he knows what he's talking about and I honestly don't care. He proved he knew what he was talking about in the only way that matters. By putting up. He gave evidence for his claims.
Granted I was already in a position to believe him cuz, well, I ALSO HAVE NOTED THE SAME THINGS.
Yet even when I provide evidence for my claims people will tell me that it ain't so! Whatever I provided is just a lie or irrelevant or! PuhLEAZE. Seriously folks, now ain't the time to play those games with me. I don't LIKE to have those games played with me ever, but right now you're walking a very thin line if you're going to say I'm ignorant or have deep issues that need worked out with a therapist or...
You ain't got a CLUE so SHUT UP! In a very real way you could say I was PMSing this past week and now it's menses. So just back the freak up and if you don't want your ass bitten don't put it in my face.
It'll all be over by the end of the week and I'll be back to the loving lovable supportive mostly quiet person you all love. For about 20 days anyways...
You can all just ignore me for a few days or whatever just don't EVER and ESPECIALLY right now try to tell me I don't know anything. Even right now there's NOTHING wrong with my mental faculties, my ability to put up with BS is just totally gone for a little while.
So you can add this to the list of things to do if you want removed.
Audrey:
Gee I feel like some of this is directed towards me without you being that direct. I mean if it is, at least have courage to call me out on it. Furthermore, if it is about me, I presented at least TWO sources, thought think more, that are based off actual empirical evidence. So don't go saying I don't know what I am talking about... Also given the time of day, I didn't feel like going too in depth but I can guarantee you I can out research you and find more scientifically accredited research. As a sociologist I've been trained on how to research, as research well.
However, if this isn't directed towards me, then I apologize for thinking it was, I made an error in judgement.
Abigail: Really? So a patient signing thingy is an accredited source? And the only other one that even mentioned any sort of backwards link at all was hardly accredited and by the only accredited research I could find quickly they had it bass ackwards. Oh. And neither even attempted to claim it was from AROMATASE!!! they'd've been laughed out of their careers if they tried that one! But that's what you tried saying they were saying. The accredited research I *COULD* find said it was a positive feedback to GnRH raising LH + FSH raising testosterone. But only within the first 36 hours of a particularly huge spike and that within not very long after that it'd even back out and then plummet ridiculously low from a NEGATIVE feedback to the same system!
Abigail: And if that didn't make any sense to you you are in ZERO position to try to out research me.
Abigail: But hey. Keep it up. Go right ahead.
Abigail: So yeah Audrey. I'll be expecting your irrefutable proof that I'm wrong and that there's a definite permanent increase in T from too much E... Or your apology for your massive abuse against me on the topic. And all the other times you've accused me of similar. Or... there's a third option. I honestly don't care, you've not exactly helped me with anything. Like. Ever. You've been a source of giggles occasionally. But that's about it on the positive side. On the negative side... You never can admit I ever know anything about anything and you have to know sooooooo much more than me about everything... When you maybe know more about sociology, since that's what you're studying for. Anything else? I suppose it depends but to assume I know less than you is patently ridiculous.
Audrey: First of all, there is next to no irrefutable proof for anything in science, theories and hypotheses are constantly evolving.... secondly I've not been abusive. So that accusation is hysterical. As for you not caring I believe that. I can see that clearly. I also see clearly that the moment someone disagrees with you you become extremely defensive and kinda flip out about it. I merely try to provide constructive responses, and insightful replies and more often than not they are counter to what your saying... not everyone is going to agree with you, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me. As for not admitting to you knowing something, I'm sure you know plenty, but most of the time you're ranting on here, which is perfectly fine, who doesn't use fb to rant. An I'd never deny what you know about your self medicating, and experimenting.... it is risky, and that doesn't necessarily demonstrate sound knowledge now does it? It's trail an error. Yes you've done research but again how of that is scientifically sound? An yes I do know more about soc, and probably several other things because I've gotten an education, I've got a minor is psychology too, taken philosophy classes, astronomy, and a lot more, but I don't consider myself an expert. Nor would I ever. It takes years in each subject to become an expert. What is constant among all that is the scientific method. Empirical data collection and analysis. Anyway consider this my final word.... because I cannot handle or deal with someone who doesn't seem to be able to handle others comments which may or not contain opinions, seems to have it out for anything medical. So with that said best of luck to you and your future endeavors.
Abigail: And good bloody riddance. I've already made a copy of the entire conversation btw. For posterity, since she'll never be seeing any of it.
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And the best part? I felt energized doing that. Not depressing or feeling upset or anything, just thrilled at taking some control of my life.
Oh. And my sister turned out was only trying to be toxic too. So she got dropped as well. Told her to do some required reading before she'd be allowed to contact me again and she hasn't contacted me since. That hurt, but I don't have any room for that right now. Maybe even if she doesn't ever see me as me I'll let her back some day, but as of right now I don't need it.
Abigail: Meh. Even if and when I ever see a doctor I doubt I'll go on conventional HRT. Spiro has some insane health implications...
Audrey: On a 1-2% risk... But still that's why you have an endo... To monitor that stuff... An there other pill options... Also for something so important seems far riskier to do it on your own...
Abigail: That's understated by a lot. And I've done substantial research into both conventional regimes and many many many less conventional herbs and other drugs. What I'm using atm has virtually no risk.
Audrey: Btw, read your post... Seems like one of your sisters is struggling with you... Sorry to hear that. Also, got to say, an don't take this the wrong way, but you've got to stop making excuses for yourself... We've got a very similar situation... Both live with our parents... Each have a difficult parent... Both of us are unemployed... I think we're both in school... An perhaps I do look more fem... But I'm not so sure about that... We both have maintain our bodies.. I'd say you've an advantage with whatever form of HRT you're on... But seriously you can't let those things stop you. Worrying over that... That's why your failing... Whether you'd admit it or not... And although I'm not much older than you... barely 2 years... Just trying to give ya some advice and also help ya in today's difficult world and although you don't need someone else to be hard on you... Someone who is in a very similar situation being a tiny bit hard on ya may be more helpful!
Abigail: Not in school atm... Ran out of money and although I do like it it's not quite totally my thing... just not enough passion in it. I do plan to finish anyways though and maybe find some way to use it. And what excuses? I told her she's being toxic and I don't need that. My new status is just informing anyone else who wants to be toxic that now's the time to go down in a blaze of glory.
Audrey: Yes well, while you're dabbling around with that, doing research that has little to no empirical/scientific backing... Getting results that may be mixed at best.. Remember, the doctors are the experts, not you. So unless you're getting a phd in that stuff it's really best left to the pros... Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what to do, just encouraging proper procedure....
Abigail: Uh-huh. Hey, if the koolaid and tea helps you sleep at night... (and yes, this is a political reference)
Abigail: Given that it was a medical encyclopedia that caused me to self-hypnotise myself as a toddler I have a VERY healthy skepticism of doctors.
Audrey: Excuses for not getting a job... Over how you look ect ect... I get the struggles just as much as you do... But you can't let that stop you... Living how your living doesn't seem ideal for you... Worse than I am, and even my situation isn't ideal.... And we both have our reasons for not being able to be out on our own... Different I'm sure... But for my part it's because I fucked up financially years ago (over $15k in credit card debt) and I'm still recovering from it legally... if it wasn't for that and my lack of job of course, but that should be remedied soon I hope, so if it wasn't for that I'd be on my own....
Abigail: Yeah... well. Honestly I don't even want a job. I do need to figure out how to get some seed money to continue researching making my dieting stuff but that's what I want to do. And then some seed money to develop it into actual products and then sell them... That's what I want to do.
Abigail: Getting a job would end that. 4-6 hours getting ready for work, work for 4-8 hours a day at least, eat, wash up, sleep, get up and do it again.
Abigail: Can't ask my parents to help with it, even if I promised them a share. They would never think I could make it work.
Audrey: Skeptic of the medical system... They are there to help you... Not make it worse.... And again self diagnosis isn't very good... Self hypno... That's a risk... How do you know you didn't mess up...just can't take matters into ones hands like that...
Abigail: the self hypno is how I hid for around 2 decades. Did it as a toddler. With part of my subconscious forced into maintaining it. Really was a nasty piece of work. Nearly led to me killing myself through inactivity towards the end of it.
Audrey: 4-6hrs to get ready?!?!? Jeez girl how in the hell does it take that long?!?! No tgirl takes that long unless they doing something wrong all the time or doing too much! 4-6hts on a daily basis is insane....
Abigail: hair.
Abigail: at least 3 hours of that is spent on removing hair.
Audrey: You have got be exaggerating!
Abigail: as it is I still always miss something somewhere.
Abigail: LOL... Wish I was... But there's not an inch of this body that doesn't have at least a dozen or so hairs growing out of it.
Abigail: and they grow in all kinds of crazy directions
Audrey: Dude I'm in the shower for 30min... 45 tops... Spend 30min or so doing body lotion and makeup... All n all usually 1.5hrs to get ready
Audrey: Yeah I get that
Abigail: that'd give you no more than 20 minutes 30 minutes at best to shave anything you're going to shave. either you don't have much hair or you don't even bother shaving most of it.
Abigail: or it all grows in basically only a few directions so you're not constantly going over the same area from 6 different directions.
Audrey: I have body hair too... And I take care of my chest, tummy, face daily... Legs, back, arms, bum, crotch on a rotation as the growth cycle is different for each area.... Seldom do I have to do it all at once and certainly not daily! Even a natal girl would not do it daily
Abigail: Legs and about 3/4ths of my arms I could get away with every other day. Groin up and down a quarter of each arm HAS to be daily. And that's a massive reduction in growth rate compared to how it was.
Abigail: Before my herbal regimen I could shave that everything in the morning and by noon look like a gorilla.
Audrey: Yeah exaggeration...
Abigail: LOL... It really isn't...
Audrey: Hardly a gorilla... So much for your realist ideology haha
Abigail: Think what you like I obviously can't prove it now!
Abigail: Oh, I could prove I could look like a gorilla but you'd have to give me a couple weeks.
Abigail: with the obvious exception of the front of my neck, which has been lasered off.
Audrey: Regardless 4-6 hrs is insane... Either you need to kick yourself in the ass and move faster or your lolly gagging during that time...
Audrey: Exactly, a few weeks... Without any maintenance!
Abigail: Used to take me even longer... But trying to get the shaving down below 3 hours is proving impossible.
Abigail: TO LOOK LIKE A GORILLA!!!!
Abigail: I'd totally look like a hairy ass man in 3 days or less
Audrey: About the 14-16 hour mark I'd have take a razor again to my face/neck if I were to stay out in public
Audrey: Just because I feel the growth and stubble that bad....
Abigail: heh. sounds about like where I am now. Maybe a bit worse. Back at Uni, I went to a BYU, and we had strict facial hair rules... I shaved IMMEDIATELY before trying to take a test and was told I needed to shave before taking my test.
Abigail: I AM NOT KIDDING YOU
Audrey: Then your technique is flawed... No one should be taking that long to shave or get ready... Sounds worse than someone who has OCD...
Abigail: and that's facial hair, which is actually growing slower than my torso!
Abigail: So how many directions does a one inch patch of your hair grow in?
Audrey: You, of all people, a realist, should realize this...
Abigail: If it is I sure hell haven't found anything better.
Abigail: At least 4 here. And that's in the more tame regions. Some regions it's as many as ten.
Audrey: And again this is where having, what you called conventional HRT, would be better for you... Controlling or curbing that growth better...
Audrey: My body grows in every which direction...
Abigail: Doubtful. Spearmint has been clinically proven more effective at minimizing hair growth than any of the prescription anti androgens. Not at decreasing serum T though... But that's part of what the chinese skullcap helps fill in for.
Abigail: I'd be very curious to get tested to find out where my serum t is...
Audrey: Hon, I'm sorry, you've got some underlying issues going on there... This is where a therapist would come in... Your in denial about it, probably stubborn too lol... And hell for all you know your body could be producing more T than you know because if your body produces to much E or has too much E it gets converted into T... So that could happening to you without you knowing since you've not gotten blood tests to check your levels....
Abigail: I also wish I could get access to herb research that's currently locked behind "pay me to open me" doors.
Abigail: LOL... E does NOT EVER get converted back to T. That's a one way street my friend.
Audrey: Yes it does
Audrey: Whom ever told you that or wherever you read, is wrong that is fact
Audrey: The body will convert it to T if there is too much E
Abigail: Uhuh. I ain't EVER seen a steroidogenesis chart with arrows pointing back to T from E.
Abigail: but hey, I'll humor you and see if I can find ANYTHING from a remotely reputably source that says it does happen.
Audrey: Yea and it seems like you've not spoke to doctors too...
Abigail: Right... Doctors... taught and paid to sell you drugs for big pharma.
Abigail: anyway, I'm looking. This may take a while so sit back and relax.
Audrey: Dr's are more than just a place to scripts from...
Abigail: I'm afraid my experience with doctors leads me to greatly distrust them. They're always treating symptoms and not even bothering searching for causes.
Abigail: But quit distracting me! I'm studying here!
Audrey: Oh great your a conspiracy theorist too... Lol your almost too much
Audrey: Hope your not a hypochondriac too
Abigail: It's only theory when it's not playing out in front of your very eyes...
Audrey: Lack of trust and faith in a dr to do their job... I'd say you've seen the wrong dr's
Abigail: And no. I'm quite healthy right now thank you. It's taken a lot of work and a lot of study and a lot of experimentation that was at times a little risky, but I've finally gotten pretty damn healthy. No thanks to any doctors who only wanted to drug me up for various symptoms and not treat any underlying cause.
Audrey: Like I said you've got some serious unhealthy underlying issues going on....
Abigail: Nope. I just stopped drinking the tea and koolaid and learned a bit too much.
Audrey: Bbaaahhh, I'm ignorant about a great deal however your ignorance is far exceeding my own lol... It's great you're physically healthy now, but I'd say mentally you've got a long way to go... You seem rather stable mentally hormone wise but in a lot of other areas quite unstable...
Abigail: The ONLY thing I'm seeing about E becoming T AT ALL is some stupid comment on Susan's.
Audrey: Haha if that were the case hon, you'd have an advanced degree of some sorts maybe even a dr yourself
Abigail: And otherwise there's a smattering of people asking elsewhere and being told that's a joke. And as far as scholar goes........ total blank. Lots and lots about T to E. But totally NOTHING the opposite way.
Audrey: So your short amounts of research didn't pay off... Which is sad... However, since the doubter in you would tell me where is my proof when I quote what I've heard dr's tell me and what I've heard friends WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH IT have told me, word of m...See More
Nicole: Audrey are you talking about PCOS? my daughter and cousin have this and the doctor told us her estrogen was being converted to testosterone.
Abigail: aromatase doesn't convert back to testosterone by ANY research I've ever seen... Third and fourth links don't even mention this at all, first is just a stupid form thing that means nothing really and the second seems to indicate it MIGHT happen as a result of a negative feedback loop but even that looks rather... odd... to try to read it in that light.
Abigail: @ Nicole: Ah, now THAT is a different beast altogether... and... I'm afraid the doctor was oversimplifying something far more complex than that.
Abigail: There's no way I can even begin to go into what's actually going on with PCOS in this setting though.
Abigail: If it actually worked that way why aren't the doctors just stuffing trans men full of estrogen instead of prescribing usually just testosterone and occasionally an ANTI AROMATASE
Abigail: And noooo. MOST steroidogenesis is a process of breaking more complex chains down to simpler chains. there's two very major total dead ends. Estriol for females and dihydrotestosterone for males. Once it reaches either of those there is NO going back to ANYTHING else. And once a steroid has been aromatized to an estrogen it can't ever be an androgen ever again. and once progesterone has become an androgen it can never ever become progesterone again. and once... You clearly have ZERO understanding of how steroidogenesis works.
Abigail: Ah! HERE'S one that does make sense! "If a distinct increase in serum estradiol is sustained for approximately 36 hours (1), a positive feedback becomes manifest, this promote the excretion of GnRH results in LH surge that causes testosterone production to increase temporary, after that the level drop back to normal. When steady level of serum estradial is maintained, and if the level is sufficient to manifest as negative feedback, then the secretion of GnRH will be suppressed (2) , result in lower LH level which reduce testosterone production."
Abigail: ok, I can buy that one. it's only temporary though...
Abigail: But it doesn't really matter anyways, I'm not using any form of human estrogen, I'm using a plant-source estrogen mimic which strongly binds and behaves even more strongly than estradiol in certain ways while not behaving at all like it in other ways. There's lots of research on the chemicals in the extract I'm using and I have read all of it. The things I'm still learning about it now are things no one else has actually put together coherently before... Like that it's actually got a 3-beta-HSD inhibitor in it. That's a very specifically targeted anti-androgen btw.
Abigail: Oh. Also found out it's great for preventing alzheimers
Abigail: that was a pretty nifty find
Abigail: ask your doc when you finally see one if any of the stuff I'm saying makes ANY sense at all, don't mention that we're talking about herbs though because 99% of doctors are conditioned to reject herbs outright by the corporate masters.
Abigail: actually you know what. don't mention it's about herbs until AFTER he's talked for a while. if he talks. that should prove to you that docs are conditioned to sell only big pharma
Audrey: .... Blah like talking to a brick wall... Your research to me is meaningless with out scientific, empirical, medical backing! I've credited two empirical sources possibly a third... I cannot recall right now and... And by you not finding what I could find in those tells me you didn't read closely enough... And your lack of faith in docs and conspiracy that they all want to feed big pharma is disturbing... It's medically unethical to just prescribe drugs... They are the expert for a reason. It's nice to do your own research but save the big decision for the pros. And unless you empirical proof, meaning from scholars, your knowledge is meaningless and you just come off as some smart ass teenage who thinks they know it all! I know I don't know it all, but what I do stand by is the scientific method!
Abigail: Extract for me the meaningful parts. Please. enlighten me. The first link doesn't count, it's just a patient waiver piece of bs nonsense that somehow managed to slip in at least one massive overstatement for the purposes of scare tactics.
Abigail: granted I only paid attention to the remotely related parts so I could have missed some other blatant bs.
Audrey: It is not non-bs that is an informed consent form!!! Dr's medically bound to them! They talk of the risks doing this! It's flat out proof! This CAN or WILL happen! Good lord I feel like I'm talking to a child....
Abigail: No you're talking to someone who's more informed than that consent form... but let's pretend that piece of paper means something. now lets find out HOW this happens... So... How does this happen?
Audrey: Nicole, I wasn't specifically looking for that, just I know too much of one hormone can product the opposite. It works both ways, its not exactly healthy for you... Can come with serious medical side effects. Which is why HRT is best left to the professionals. I'd never tell someone not to do what they need to do but I wouldn't encourage it either!
Abigail: ... Too much P could theoretically produce more T and E. Too much T could quite probably produce more E. But too much E?? Just shuts everything down eventually.
Abigail: I didn't say too much E didn't have it's risk. But there's a difference between a real scientifically and medically proven risk and nonsense scare tactics.
Abigail: But please. Enlighten me. Which of those other links describes what's happening to make T from E.
Abigail: That second link certainly doesn't look remotely accredited to me though...
Abigail: A wealth of articles referring to how large amounts of estradiol can spike GnRH: http://scholar.google.com/scholar...
estradiol increase gnrh - Google Scholar
Abigail: accredited link between the GnRH surge and an LH surge: http://endo.endojournals.org/content/129/3/1175.short
Abigail: a VERY loose link between LH surge and testosterone rising: http://endo.endojournals.org/content/101/2/421.short
The Influence of Mating and Related Stimuli on Plasma Levels of Luteinizing Hormone, Follicle...
endo.endojournals.org
Male rats were exposed to several stimuli associated with mating, and their rest...See More
Abigail: many articles stating strong link with high sustained E2 and GnRH suppression: http://scholar.google.com/scholar...
estradiol gnrh negative feedback - Google Scholar
Abigail: and obviously if gnrh releases lh, then no gnrh == no lh
Abigail: no lh == no testosterone.
Abigail: Please by all means find something to debunk ALL of that.
Abigail: mind you it must be accredited.
Abigail: honestly the causality for the brief surge is far more far fetched than the one for a permanent depression after.
----------------------------------------------------
And meanwhile side exhibit:
Abigail
You know. I get really tired of people telling me I don't know anything because I lack this or that or this other qualification and then turning around and proving their own total ignorance about what they're telling me I don't know about. You want to tell me I'm wrong about something I've already thoroughly researched? You'd better be prepared to back that up with something meaty and don't expect me to back it up for you with very circumstantial reference material at best which only amounts to telling me that MAYBE there's a research point there if I felt it merited enough consideration to bother myself with... And then the only thing I find that backs you up even a little IS circumstantial AND nothing relevant?! Yeah. Put up or shut up.
Same goes for things I'm actually experiencing for real or have put myself through in the past. Actually, with that there ain't even room for putting up. I'm the one living my life. Those're MY experiencing we're discussing. Sorry. YOU AIN'T GOT A CLUE!
Like that dude on the upworthy link I posted moments ago, if I say something, it's because I KNOW something. I don't know if he has any credentials to say he knows what he's talking about and I honestly don't care. He proved he knew what he was talking about in the only way that matters. By putting up. He gave evidence for his claims.
Granted I was already in a position to believe him cuz, well, I ALSO HAVE NOTED THE SAME THINGS.
Yet even when I provide evidence for my claims people will tell me that it ain't so! Whatever I provided is just a lie or irrelevant or! PuhLEAZE. Seriously folks, now ain't the time to play those games with me. I don't LIKE to have those games played with me ever, but right now you're walking a very thin line if you're going to say I'm ignorant or have deep issues that need worked out with a therapist or...
You ain't got a CLUE so SHUT UP! In a very real way you could say I was PMSing this past week and now it's menses. So just back the freak up and if you don't want your ass bitten don't put it in my face.
It'll all be over by the end of the week and I'll be back to the loving lovable supportive mostly quiet person you all love. For about 20 days anyways...
You can all just ignore me for a few days or whatever just don't EVER and ESPECIALLY right now try to tell me I don't know anything. Even right now there's NOTHING wrong with my mental faculties, my ability to put up with BS is just totally gone for a little while.
So you can add this to the list of things to do if you want removed.
Audrey:
Gee I feel like some of this is directed towards me without you being that direct. I mean if it is, at least have courage to call me out on it. Furthermore, if it is about me, I presented at least TWO sources, thought think more, that are based off actual empirical evidence. So don't go saying I don't know what I am talking about... Also given the time of day, I didn't feel like going too in depth but I can guarantee you I can out research you and find more scientifically accredited research. As a sociologist I've been trained on how to research, as research well.
However, if this isn't directed towards me, then I apologize for thinking it was, I made an error in judgement.
Abigail: Really? So a patient signing thingy is an accredited source? And the only other one that even mentioned any sort of backwards link at all was hardly accredited and by the only accredited research I could find quickly they had it bass ackwards. Oh. And neither even attempted to claim it was from AROMATASE!!! they'd've been laughed out of their careers if they tried that one! But that's what you tried saying they were saying. The accredited research I *COULD* find said it was a positive feedback to GnRH raising LH + FSH raising testosterone. But only within the first 36 hours of a particularly huge spike and that within not very long after that it'd even back out and then plummet ridiculously low from a NEGATIVE feedback to the same system!
Abigail: And if that didn't make any sense to you you are in ZERO position to try to out research me.
Abigail: But hey. Keep it up. Go right ahead.
Abigail: So yeah Audrey. I'll be expecting your irrefutable proof that I'm wrong and that there's a definite permanent increase in T from too much E... Or your apology for your massive abuse against me on the topic. And all the other times you've accused me of similar. Or... there's a third option. I honestly don't care, you've not exactly helped me with anything. Like. Ever. You've been a source of giggles occasionally. But that's about it on the positive side. On the negative side... You never can admit I ever know anything about anything and you have to know sooooooo much more than me about everything... When you maybe know more about sociology, since that's what you're studying for. Anything else? I suppose it depends but to assume I know less than you is patently ridiculous.
Audrey: First of all, there is next to no irrefutable proof for anything in science, theories and hypotheses are constantly evolving.... secondly I've not been abusive. So that accusation is hysterical. As for you not caring I believe that. I can see that clearly. I also see clearly that the moment someone disagrees with you you become extremely defensive and kinda flip out about it. I merely try to provide constructive responses, and insightful replies and more often than not they are counter to what your saying... not everyone is going to agree with you, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me. As for not admitting to you knowing something, I'm sure you know plenty, but most of the time you're ranting on here, which is perfectly fine, who doesn't use fb to rant. An I'd never deny what you know about your self medicating, and experimenting.... it is risky, and that doesn't necessarily demonstrate sound knowledge now does it? It's trail an error. Yes you've done research but again how of that is scientifically sound? An yes I do know more about soc, and probably several other things because I've gotten an education, I've got a minor is psychology too, taken philosophy classes, astronomy, and a lot more, but I don't consider myself an expert. Nor would I ever. It takes years in each subject to become an expert. What is constant among all that is the scientific method. Empirical data collection and analysis. Anyway consider this my final word.... because I cannot handle or deal with someone who doesn't seem to be able to handle others comments which may or not contain opinions, seems to have it out for anything medical. So with that said best of luck to you and your future endeavors.
Abigail: And good bloody riddance. I've already made a copy of the entire conversation btw. For posterity, since she'll never be seeing any of it.
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And the best part? I felt energized doing that. Not depressing or feeling upset or anything, just thrilled at taking some control of my life.
Oh. And my sister turned out was only trying to be toxic too. So she got dropped as well. Told her to do some required reading before she'd be allowed to contact me again and she hasn't contacted me since. That hurt, but I don't have any room for that right now. Maybe even if she doesn't ever see me as me I'll let her back some day, but as of right now I don't need it.
