Important question about subs

[Mystic Pymp]

Hello

Recently I've entertained the thought that subs might be in fact blank tracks with no information in them and all effect one experiences come from placebo effect. I was thinking about it since the start quite frankly but I was dismissing it because I wanted to be open-minded and positive. You have to suspend your disbelieve every now and then, right? Today however I decided to make some research, and what I've learnt is quite disturbing for me.

I've decided to do a test. I've downloaded all available subliminals and compared them. If my knowledge about computer files is correct chance for two different files to have the same content is minimal. Mind you all of the subs are 5G.

These are the results:


As you can see pairs LTU & Stress Relief as well as ASC & CHA have exact the same sizes for all three tracks. This for me is explainable so please if you know how come this is the case then tell me here. Even two recordings of white or pink noise will almost always (we're talking 99,9999%) propabilities to have different sizes, not to mention files with distinct changes to it. For some reason EPRHA and CURP don't fit this pattern, why those two pairs do?

Look, I don't like questioning things, especially those that work. But I think I'm entitled to ask questions, even if it will bring me your hate. This is reason why I left the Church, people didn't like asking questions. I do ask them because I don't want to be misguided and used. I there is explanation for that, if MP3 files are encoded differently than I think they are, I will rest my point and return to listening to LTU happy and content. And I DON'T call Shannon fraud and cheater now. However if LTU taught me anything, is that me and my time have a worth and are way too valuable to waste it listening to tracks of questionable quality. So please, don't throw hates at me.

[Mystic Pymp]

I've done some research and apparently it IS possible if tracks have the same bit rate and same exact number of samples in them, and they might since they come from the same subless track with additional layer of subliminals. It's still bizarre for me, but there are formats like this (take simple .txt file) where size depends on length only, not the contents. Even more bizarre for me is that they have same sizes despite different tagging, which must have add a couple of bytes of difference. But perhaps tagging work same way as names of folder paths work and are not stored on the file itself?

TL;DR Same sizes of the files don't prove anything against Shannon's subs being legit.

I'd love to hear about some technicalities from someone knowledgeable though, out of simple curiosity if anything else.

[adam225]

It's the same with AM, stage 1 is the only stage that is a different (smaller) size - all three tracks are the same mb. I can tell you now that each stage has a different effect though as I've experienced it personally (along with everyone else who has used it).

[JackOfHearts]

One thing I have been wondering is : why Shannon doesn't share the subliminals hash(md5, sha*, etc) so we can check that our files don't have any corruption.

I don't have any doubts anymore even if I come back in my mind to check it to be sure. Clever people ask question, the others just follow the most crowded path.

[InTheZone]

Decided I would chime in on this as it is an area of much interest to me. This question about different tracks having the same size has much to do with how they are built and what the technology is that determines the file size. I will start with the ladder question.

These files are all built into MP3 compressed audio. The purpose of MP3 is to remove pieces from the audio track that you are not as likely to notice missing. Subliminal audio would defiantly fit this description, but, I will come back to that in a second. MP3 when it was designed initially, it used a CBR (constant bit rate) for encoding. After a while, they implemented a VBR (variable bit rate). The fact that they audio files are the same size tells you that Shannon is using CBR to encode them.

The other reason why they come out to the same size is because they are the same length of time. The final size of the file is determined by two factors. Bit rate and samples collected. Bit rate (16 in the case) determines how many bits of accuracy are used to capture a number that represents that audio file at a certain time. 16 bits allows for 2^16 different numbers to represent that time. Samples per second tells you how many times that bit rate is captured in a second. Now, if you take the samples collected times the bit rate you end up with roughly the final size of the file. There is some meta data like track and what not stored in there as well. Metadata for the MP3 is a fixed size and so even if you put nothing in the title, it just uses that space to store blanks.

The reason these tracks of different sounds end up as the same size as each other is that they are from the same source. In the build process Shannon overlays his subliminal audio on top of the mask audio that is already built. Thus, they have the exact same length and with CBR, that means they are the same size. It is not to say that they don't include any extra data. Any change in file size only means that the source audio length has changed. Since MP3 removes un noticed information, Shannon has to use special encoder settings not to remove the subliminal audio.

maniac360 alluded to something very important in his post that would help you see that they files are not the same. If you took an md5 hash of those files, you could see if they were exactly the same or not. Same file size != same file, but, same md5 hash = same file. If all the surf audio tracks have the same md5 hash for different programs then you have a reason to question Shannon about the authenticity of his programs.

Another thing you can look at is the ultrasonic subliminal tracks. These are interesting because the audio contains nothing but the subliminal voices. You would notice in Shannon's audios that these have volume and are not silent. I've found this not to be true with some of the other audios floating around.

[Shannon]

Well said, InTheZone.

I don't offer md5 hashes of the files because I never thought I had to, and because that adds another step to my work flow. I'm already miles behind.

You're welcome to compare them with md5 hashes, though. They're not the same, and they do contain different subliminal data.

If you consider a few things logically, it will become apparent that they must be hat I say they are. For instance:

1. We have a public forum. If it wasn't what I say it is, eventually someone would figure this out and make that fact public. If that was the case, we could not afford to have a public forum, because with tools like md5 hashes to use and check, you absolutely cannot hide things like that.

2. Placebo effect cannot account for all the results people get. In fact it cannot account for the vast majority of the results people get. The way placebo actually works typically limits its effects severely in both impact and time of effect. Read the interview I did for more on how placebo works.

3. We could not possibly charge what we do and stay in business if these programs were not what I say they are. Not enough people would be affected by placebo to make them sell for very long even if I was charging the same as my competition.

I'll have to consider releasing them with a hash.

[Shannon]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Let's use the new BASE program that has not yet been released. I am using a Linux system. md5sum is in coreutils, so it's easily accessible for me.

[shannon@localhost Arena]$ md5sum *
7ab32fbd402f6c5f5c6c700f1d87b83e Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
597077e46785941bbc5e33827f308be3 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
77e18e892a3050a57898668a21375ab4 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
43baec99c8da20f729d8b12333a2cb18 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1.zip
6a9937ae2516a48b4703647560d05538 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
04963e7357927d4db439c4e38cc1d4ac Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling Stream).mp3
6e77b69113e5d80550000a006d03c84a Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
b86244d4d3865f723909277630679591 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2.zip
3cb1895d5bf4b3dba0bb6e34708a23b9 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
b72ec8ba570c44ec68a20a1613ab9cd0 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
4dd7a9f988e21cdcef791efc4ec80160 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
8f4e97a120f9478704de48d36fb85cc8 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3.zip
67ca4f21570de3cf0790a9f46728f9b1 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
f6f90abb12d08d000b3917f26c4874d8 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
4205470c1af390ce66c664b3d54bebf1 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
8b685115792cac3504b002d93496eb03 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4.zip
2b1eda56b5cdb3bc1b63599368b9ecd9 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
26f7b20c95933967912fa228f66876ed Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
c0ba5c358479d5337041ea14ec96bce7 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
65a87a5232e3f7f5b94669df9f1bad3f Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5.zip
46b09e90f0224650c26d2a5978163ae1 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
c1166b1cc4c698644b92d267b3a37fb3 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
6bb8bbd7cef7badbaef8b6eb2923fbf0 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
25361bd45c6bd17d97abb551cc1ffb11 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6.zip
[shannon@localhost Arena]$
[shannon@localhost Arena]$ ls -al
total 6687308
drwxrwxr-x 2 shannon shannon 4096 Oct 1 19:02 ./
drwxrwxr-x 3 shannon shannon 4096 Oct 1 00:44 ../
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192022049 Sep 5 12:03 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192007420 Sep 5 12:03 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192005330 Sep 5 12:03 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 565268596 Sep 5 12:05 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_1.zip
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192022049 Sep 7 03:12 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192007420 Sep 7 03:12 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling Stream).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192005330 Sep 7 03:12 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 565231493 Sep 7 03:12 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_2.zip
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192022049 Sep 10 13:21 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192007420 Sep 10 13:21 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192005330 Sep 10 13:21 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 565250442 Sep 10 13:22 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_3.zip
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192022049 Sep 26 17:19 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192007420 Sep 26 17:19 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192005330 Sep 26 17:20 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 565243707 Sep 26 17:20 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_4.zip
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192022049 Sep 26 17:15 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192007420 Sep 26 17:15 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192005330 Sep 26 17:15 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 565246249 Sep 26 17:16 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_5.zip
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192022049 Oct 1 00:40 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6_Masked_Subliminal_(Ocean_Surf).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192007420 Oct 1 00:40 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6_Masked_Subliminal_(Trickling_Stream).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 192005330 Oct 1 00:40 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6_Ultrasonic_Subliminal_(Silent).mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 shannon shannon 565272649 Oct 1 00:42 Become_A_Successful_Entrepreneur_5G_Stage_6.zip
[shannon@localhost Arena]$

Actual size in bites is rarely the same. It can be shown differently on different operating systems, and on different file managers.

I used to use byte padding to fill the last sector's worth of data in each mp3 file with enough data to complete the sector in which it was being stored on the disk, but I do not do that now because it was raising questions like these. I also stopped using that DAW to encode my files for mp3. But in the DAW, the difference is just a checkbox that I unchecked to stop padding bytes at the end of the file.

[Mystic Pymp]

Thanks Shannon for technicalities, I appreciate it

[Shannon]

Not a problem. :-)