(11-06-2016, 04:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: To be honest, Sarge, it's not really going to go in any "direction" because you've shown a remarkable capacity to misunderstand, misconstrue and downright ignore the essence of what someone's telling you to the point that there's no real benefit for me to spend a significant amount of time explaining things to you.

The human female equivalent of the video you showed is the IOI. What you and 2Cops are advocating is ignoring the signals she's giving to come and approach.

(EDIT: In Gorilla reproduction, ONLY the silverback has the right to procreate. Everyone else must sneak **** the women.)

You're literally arguing that approaching a woman is "giving away your power," while passively sitting there and letting her CHOOSE OR REJECT YOU is instead empowerment.

That's by far the most ridiculous argument I've seen on this forum yet.

We've had this conversation before: You have your mind made up before entering the conversation. The fact of the matter -- if we want to get technical and logical -- is you are a virgin, and what you've been doing clearly isn't working for you. And yet, instead of truly exploring different avenues, you're continuing to rely on the same exact paradigms that have failed you before.

There's a beautiful quote from "No Country for Old Men," that goes something like this: "If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

So, if ignorance suits you, wear it. Continue to "honor" your limited experience and ignore those who are much more experienced around you.

(11-06-2016, 04:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: We've had this conversation before: You have your mind made up before entering the conversation. The fact of the matter -- if we want to get technical and logical -- is you are a virgin, and what you've been doing clearly isn't working for you. And yet, instead of truly exploring different avenues, you're continuing to rely on the same exact paradigms that have failed you before.

(11-06-2016, 04:01 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: [...]any time I've gone and tried to make something happen with a girl after she has shown interest she has lost interest instantly.

(11-06-2016, 05:36 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: I don't even know how to respond to all this. But it definitely seems like until I have my d!ck in a pussy I'll constantly be doing things wrong according to the more experienced members here.

(11-06-2016, 06:05 PM)RTBoss Wrote: Sometimes it seems like there's a lot more interest in promoting and/or protecting belief systems than maintaining open minds, trying new things, and achieving end goal desires.

(11-06-2016, 06:02 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: So, there it is. I know I don't "get" it yet, but I also don't think I deserve a lashing when I'm actively trying to work on this shit.

(11-06-2016, 04:21 PM)Benjamin Wrote:

Quote:Where did Shannon ever say the subliminal eliminates the option to speak to women?

He didn't but that's how everyone is acting and I don't want it to be pushed in that direction because so many people seem to be talking in that direction. As I said in the post it seems to be creating this attitude of "oh this woman come right over to me, took her pants off and I did nothing because she should do everything".


And WTF.. half these other arguments i'm seeing are obviously coming from reading too much pua material and theory without actual experience and it hurts my head. I was going to respond to it but it's of no value for me to do so.

Quote:I don't understand why the choice is so binary, isn't it possible to have both? Maximize DMSI to have women approach you, but also give you the ability to approach women?

Yep that's what I was trying to say.

Quote:Sitting on your ass waiting for the world to happen is what women do, and it's why they miss out on 99.9% of decent guys who could make them happy.

Yep exactly, I was going to say something like that.

And

Quote: It also doesn't mean you should become a jellyfish and do nothing when you see an opportunity to make something happen!

This is exactly the mentality some people are getting into. I just used 2.4 for like 2 days, I mentioned a woman in an opshop come right over, stand next to me and give a big smile and I naturally said hi, and there's the conversation. WIth the mindset that i'm seeing here though there would be some people like "NO.. she's meant to do more" when what she did was pretty damn big and obvious for a woman.

(11-06-2016, 07:32 PM)wolverine_i_am Wrote:

(11-06-2016, 04:21 PM)Benjamin Wrote:

Quote:Where did Shannon ever say the subliminal eliminates the option to speak to women?

He didn't but that's how everyone is acting and I don't want it to be pushed in that direction because so many people seem to be talking in that direction. As I said in the post it seems to be creating this attitude of "oh this woman come right over to me, took her pants off and I did nothing because she should do everything".


And WTF.. half these other arguments i'm seeing are obviously coming from reading too much pua material and theory without actual experience and it hurts my head. I was going to respond to it but it's of no value for me to do so.

Quote:I don't understand why the choice is so binary, isn't it possible to have both? Maximize DMSI to have women approach you, but also give you the ability to approach women?

Yep that's what I was trying to say.

Quote:Sitting on your ass waiting for the world to happen is what women do, and it's why they miss out on 99.9% of decent guys who could make them happy.

Yep exactly, I was going to say something like that.

And

Quote: It also doesn't mean you should become a jellyfish and do nothing when you see an opportunity to make something happen!

This is exactly the mentality some people are getting into. I just used 2.4 for like 2 days, I mentioned a woman in an opshop come right over, stand next to me and give a big smile and I naturally said hi, and there's the conversation. WIth the mindset that i'm seeing here though there would be some people like "NO.. she's meant to do more" when what she did was pretty damn big and obvious for a woman.

Furthermore, Shannon said there is meet-each-other-half-way programming. So people really shouldn't get all 'jellyfish', as you guys are putting it, when there is a huge obvious opportunity for you to seize.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote:

(11-06-2016, 06:02 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: So, there it is. I know I don't "get" it yet, but I also don't think I deserve a lashing when I'm actively trying to work on this shit.

Yeah, you're right. Pardon me. I'm still getting used to the new personality shifts that these subliminals are causing. Makes me unaware when I'm being caustic until I catch myself.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: I'm not saying that approaching women "PUA style" is the "right" way to do it. Everyone has their own style. If you notice, I'm not the biggest day game type. That being said, I've all but mastered the online dating thing. The argument I was making is that you're NOT "giving away your power" by approaching women.

But again, approaching women "day game" style may not be your thing. Perhaps it's club game. Perhaps you'd do better having friends hook you up blind date style.

OR, perhaps "every woman" isn't losing interest when you approach. It's possible that's just a limiting belief holding you back. OR, maybe you're coming on too strong when you approach. OR, maybe you're not being aggressive enough. Try all different avenues and see what works for you, then develop it like a skill.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: For example: I'm good at boxing. I wasn't born good at boxing. However, in regards to martial arts, I'm a much better striker than a grappler. In fact, it seems like I have a natural inclination for striking. Thus, I develop that skill, because that's what I have sufficient evidence that it'll work for me.

The last time I engaged with you on this, you said my style of dealing with women was "weird," and you preferred what Sickologist does. Ok, cool -- but is Sickologist's style YOUR style? I've said this before -- Sick has a very honed and focused mind -- his style isn't something you just emulate if you aren't a natural. It's like, in boxing, everyone wants to emulate Muhammad Ali. Ali isn't a fighter you try to copy. He makes a lot of technical mistakes, like crossing his legs and leaving his hands down. So, why was Ali so good? Because, his fighting style mimicked his thought patterns (as above, so below). He probably couldn't teach you how he was able to do the things he did. He's just Ali.

You have to develop Sarge style. Just as I developed chaos style.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: I could tell you my style, but you'd just be like "wtf, that sounds weird," and I'd get it. To the outsider, who isn't me, who hasn't honed that process, it DOES sound weird. My style involves identifying a particular type of woman -- one with dreams of grandeur and a killer imagination -- and then using my ability to write and spin yarns to suck them out of reality and into my fantasy. For example, the chick I'm closing on now. Here's the convo. We matched on OkCupid. When you match (both click the like button), it sends a message to both parties saying, "You Liked Each Other!"

Her: Looks like it! So, what's this empire you're building? ​
Me: The kind that, when finished, will grant me a level of freedom that most will only people dream about.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: Picture me winning an Oscar with you hanging off my arm.
Her: That sounds amaaazing Are you looking for purely financial freedom or something more?
Me: Somewhere between both.
Her: So you're not gonna tell me exactly what it is?
Me: I'll tell you over drinks, after I finish flirting with you. We flip to see who pays. That is, once you hand over your number.
Her: [Insert Number Here]

I bet you think that's weird. But it works. A lot. And I can prove it if I must. And when I go out on the date, I'll hit them with my fantastical stories of Mexico and traveling up and down the West Coast (LA, San Francisco, etc).

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: Now -- ask yourself, what is SARGE STYLE? When does your personality, in whatever manifestation it takes, shine the most? Mine is when I'm performing and telling stories. Sickologist is a straight up badass and enigma. Sarge is ______?

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: The fact of the matter is, you have a lot of people with experience with women saying approaching works. At this point, you have two choices: You can say that we're all lying or imagining things, and relying on your own experience that isn't leading to results. Or, you can question your own methods to see if there's something you're missing.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: In fact, it seems like I have a natural inclination for striking. Thus, I develop that skill, because that's what I have sufficient evidence that it'll work for me.

(11-06-2016, 08:07 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote:

(11-06-2016, 06:02 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: So, there it is. I know I don't "get" it yet, but I also don't think I deserve a lashing when I'm actively trying to work on this shit.

Yeah, you're right. Pardon me. I'm still getting used to the new personality shifts that these subliminals are causing. Makes me unaware when I'm being caustic until I catch myself.

I understand, no worries.

I appreciate your insights as well.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: I'm not saying that approaching women "PUA style" is the "right" way to do it. Everyone has their own style. If you notice, I'm not the biggest day game type. That being said, I've all but mastered the online dating thing. The argument I was making is that you're NOT "giving away your power" by approaching women.

But again, approaching women "day game" style may not be your thing. Perhaps it's club game. Perhaps you'd do better having friends hook you up blind date style.

OR, perhaps "every woman" isn't losing interest when you approach. It's possible that's just a limiting belief holding you back. OR, maybe you're coming on too strong when you approach. OR, maybe you're not being aggressive enough. Try all different avenues and see what works for you, then develop it like a skill.

This is kind of what I've been suspecting recently, as a matter of fact, in that my style may be more passive than most. Specifically, it may be DMSI style. I find it to be no coincidence that on DMSI I've gotten less resistance and more "results" than I have on any other program.

I think the issue here is what, exactly, I'm supposed to do when women approach me or offer themselves for an approach. As RTBoss says "know what to do with a woman". Indeed, I do not. And THAT, specifically, is the problem I believe.

I realize this may seem like advocating not taking any action but it's not.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: For example: I'm good at boxing. I wasn't born good at boxing. However, in regards to martial arts, I'm a much better striker than a grappler. In fact, it seems like I have a natural inclination for striking. Thus, I develop that skill, because that's what I have sufficient evidence that it'll work for me.

The last time I engaged with you on this, you said my style of dealing with women was "weird," and you preferred what Sickologist does. Ok, cool -- but is Sickologist's style YOUR style? I've said this before -- Sick has a very honed and focused mind -- his style isn't something you just emulate if you aren't a natural. It's like, in boxing, everyone wants to emulate Muhammad Ali. Ali isn't a fighter you try to copy. He makes a lot of technical mistakes, like crossing his legs and leaving his hands down. So, why was Ali so good? Because, his fighting style mimicked his thought patterns (as above, so below). He probably couldn't teach you how he was able to do the things he did. He's just Ali.

You have to develop Sarge style. Just as I developed chaos style.

And this is what I am trying to do. It's not so easy, especially when you realize that just "doing such and such" isn't the key, but being true to yourself is.

It's like with sales (I'm sure you'll appreciate this). When I first started I made more sales than anyone in my company. They called me a natural. Still, I was new to it and I knew it, so I asked for advice many times to try and improve myself.

As I did, it became increasingly obvious that the advice I was getting didn't work for me. In fact, what DID work for me was often (if not always) the exact OPPOSITE of what was being advised.

I have recently come to suspect the same may be true for seduction, and indeed, it seems to be the case.

I have some (what I think are) very intriguing ideas about attraction and masculinity (especially from what you said about imposing the will on others) but I digress.

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: I could tell you my style, but you'd just be like "wtf, that sounds weird," and I'd get it. To the outsider, who isn't me, who hasn't honed that process, it DOES sound weird. My style involves identifying a particular type of woman -- one with dreams of grandeur and a killer imagination -- and then using my ability to write and spin yarns to suck them out of reality and into my fantasy. For example, the chick I'm closing on now. Here's the convo. We matched on OkCupid. When you match (both click the like button), it sends a message to both parties saying, "You Liked Each Other!"

Her: Looks like it! So, what's this empire you're building? ​
Me: The kind that, when finished, will grant me a level of freedom that most will only people dream about.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: Picture me winning an Oscar with you hanging off my arm.
Her: That sounds amaaazing Are you looking for purely financial freedom or something more?
Me: Somewhere between both.
Her: So you're not gonna tell me exactly what it is?
Me: I'll tell you over drinks, after I finish flirting with you. We flip to see who pays. That is, once you hand over your number.
Her: [Insert Number Here]

I bet you think that's weird. But it works. A lot. And I can prove it if I must. And when I go out on the date, I'll hit them with my fantastical stories of Mexico and traveling up and down the West Coast (LA, San Francisco, etc).

I have no doubt it works for you, as it clearly does, and I'm not questioning your ability with women. What's more accurate is that, because I recognize your ability with women, I hope to gain some insight that will help me... \/

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: Now -- ask yourself, what is SARGE STYLE? When does your personality, in whatever manifestation it takes, shine the most? Mine is when I'm performing and telling stories. Sickologist is a straight up badass and enigma. Sarge is ______?

/\ This.

I do not know yet, but I do have some ideas. And, like I said, it's more towards the passive end of the spectrum.

Believe it or not I actually DO believe that an alpha male would sit on his laurels and women would come to f*ck him. (Sorry, couldn't resist. But you see what I'm getting at. If masculinity is imposing it's will as you say, then perhaps my will is that women come to me. Could it be? I don't know, but perhaps it is.)

And if this is the case, it would explain a lot.

I am a virgin, but it's not because women weren't attracted to me, and it wasn't because women never asked to go out with me (they have, in their own way) it's because I never took the next step.

I believe my issue is just that: to take the next step. NOT to change my style (which clearly creates a ton of attraction).

Does that make sense?

Now people like Ben and RT (and even you, I'm sorry to say) are telling me to throw my style out because I haven't gotten laid with it yet, but I'm wondering if I just need to take the next step WITHIN that style.

Does that make sense?

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: The fact of the matter is, you have a lot of people with experience with women saying approaching works. At this point, you have two choices: You can say that we're all lying or imagining things, and relying on your own experience that isn't leading to results. Or, you can question your own methods to see if there's something you're missing.

That's the flawed argument right there. Why? Because if IOI's mean anything, my experience tells me I just need to take the next step, NOT scrap the style that is garnering me the IOI's.

After all, isn't an IOI an "indicator of interest"?

I certainly get a lot of them when being the "lazy alpha".

As you yourself said:

(11-06-2016, 06:43 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: In fact, it seems like I have a natural inclination for striking. Thus, I develop that skill, because that's what I have sufficient evidence that it'll work for me.

Exactly. You have sufficient evidence that it will work for you.

I'm following the same philosophy with women, which is that, the better they respond and the closer I get to sex, the more in line with my "naturalness" I am.

Just like in sales, I can literally feel when I'm closing in on a sale, and have predicted sales on multiple houses. So too with women I can tell if they are at least responding better to me.

So that's all I can do: follow the successes, and I can say that my style is closer to success than anything else, I just need to take that next step.

(11-06-2016, 08:39 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: @Sarge

Ahhh. This actually makes a lot of sense.

I didn't realize you were getting as much attraction and IOIs as you are. Sounds like you actually already have a style down, but there's just some kind of blockage keeping you from taking the next step. If that's the case, trust your natural instincts to guide you. They're probably more intuitive than you realize. v2.4 will clear that blockage eventually anyway.

(11-06-2016, 08:39 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: Being completely honest, escalation was a problem for me too. Hell, still is. When I find myself actually falling for the chick, I have a hard time making moves -- that's what happened with #3. On that front, I don't know how much I can offer. My strategy (which has been successful) is to assume attraction and just push aggressively for sex until she gives a rather forceful "NO." Otherwise, I assume all soft resistance (anything other than NO) is last minute resistance.

If she says NO -- STOP. Even if you think she's really turned on. It's not worth it.

Sometimes, to make things fun, I'll ask her "what her intentions are." Many times, it just breaks the ice and she gets into what happens next.

I do have to point out though... that NSFM and OAA will help with these significantly, so we should probably advocate their inclusion in v3.0.

(11-06-2016, 09:02 PM)2Cozy Wrote: Sarge try this, next time you are around a girl who's giving you iois, come up with a "plan" like for example, ask her to go to the mall or a restaurant with you, anywhere, just move her around and spend more and more time with her. Eventually she'll ask you to go to her place or you can ask her to go to your place, but not too seriously (just gauge where she's at) she'll give you the right signs or tell you if she's ready.

When you finally do get alone with her, just act it out if you're not comfortable, hold her, escalate but watch to see how comfortable she is. If it gets down to it, and she says no, always back away but try again after a little while, she will just want to know that she has control over the situation, you may not get it that day, but the next day when she's thought about it your chances are higher.

And also sometimes girls will act disinterested but really they're just trying to respect themselves and not give away too much power, just gauge that and do as much as you think you can get away with. If you do it this way the power will always be in your hands, and you'll always get what you want.

(11-06-2016, 09:26 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(11-06-2016, 09:02 PM)2Cozy Wrote: Sarge try this, next time you are around a girl who's giving you iois, come up with a "plan" like for example, ask her to go to the mall or a restaurant with you, anywhere, just move her around and spend more and more time with her. Eventually she'll ask you to go to her place or you can ask her to go to your place, but not too seriously (just gauge where she's at) she'll give you the right signs or tell you if she's ready.

When you finally do get alone with her, just act it out if you're not comfortable, hold her, escalate but watch to see how comfortable she is. If it gets down to it, and she says no, always back away but try again after a little while, she will just want to know that she has control over the situation, you may not get it that day, but the next day when she's thought about it your chances are higher.

And also sometimes girls will act disinterested but really they're just trying to respect themselves and not give away too much power, just gauge that and do as much as you think you can get away with. If you do it this way the power will always be in your hands, and you'll always get what you want.

Yeah I dunno man. I went on a date with a girl once where she was avoiding me during it. It was so weird. I'd go for a kiss and she'd move to the other end of the table and stuff so eventually I decided to end it. The weird thing is, she seemed comfortable around me just not aroused maybe. I dunno, it's so confusing to me.

She let me put my arm around her waist and stuff too just, I dunno, it was weird.

I texted her a few days later to set up a second date but she never got back to me so I have no clue what I did wrong or what happened.

(11-06-2016, 09:43 PM)2Cozy Wrote: Was it the first date? I don’t think anything’s wrong with making a move on a girl, but you just have to gauge where she’s at, it’s kind of like your leading her through it, like reading someone a story. You just always have to watch where she’s at, if you do too much you give away too much power and she’ll get scared, if you do to little she might feel like she’s wasting her time. Not too hot, not too cold, it just has to be smooth. Don’t see her as a hot girl, just see her a person you’re getting to know, and be the best you. And relax. After a while you can do it like clockwork.

(11-06-2016, 09:57 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(11-06-2016, 09:43 PM)2Cozy Wrote: Was it the first date? I don’t think anything’s wrong with making a move on a girl, but you just have to gauge where she’s at, it’s kind of like your leading her through it, like reading someone a story. You just always have to watch where she’s at, if you do too much you give away too much power and she’ll get scared, if you do to little she might feel like she’s wasting her time. Not too hot, not too cold, it just has to be smooth. Don’t see her as a hot girl, just see her a person you’re getting to know, and be the best you. And relax. After a while you can do it like clockwork.

Yeah it was the first date.

And now, this is where it gets confusing and actually gives me a headache every time I try to figure this shit out. But I thought I was supposed to be able to be masculine, "impose my will", set the frame, bring the girl into my reality, and all that shit, but then there's the other aspect of "go at her pace", check in with her, make sure she's ok, etc.

So which is it? I don't get it and it drives me insane (literally. I'm probably more likely to get admitted to a mental hospital than i am to get laid at this point, only slightly joking).

I don't understand how it all works. If I didn't know better, i'd say sleeping with a girl is more an exercise of me getting her to do what she wants, than me doing what i want.