(08-03-2016, 11:13 AM)eternitys_child Wrote: Sarge, I wouldn't at all be surprised if when you decide to throw in the towel of trying to figure it all out, things will start to click.

I admire your intellect and your analytical and critical thinking capabilities. Sometimes to the point where I feel like my brain short circuits from trying to understand the profound level at which you dissect a concept and reverse engineer it. But I don't know if you are doing yourself any favors by trying so hard to understand. Maybe it's semantics, where the word "beliefs" used by Shannon and yourself mean completely different things.

I actually typed out a partial response to the whole X Y belief things but it's way over my head so I erased it... I wish I could contribute more but I think chaosvrgn hit the nail on the head in so many ways so it's not necessary

(08-03-2016, 09:15 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 08:40 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote: because gravity is written into the physical universe, but that doesn't somehow negate the concept of your beliefs creating your physical reality. Just means there's limits.

Exactly. And so are a lot of things I'm guessing, like how women go for jerks, for example.

(08-03-2016, 11:42 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote: Playful jerks, bro. Playful. Your "jerkiness" has to come from a place of strength, that you're actively refusing to operate within her psychological frame. Last night, my date kept trying to get me to admit that I could be a "gentleman." I just looked at her playfully and said, "there's absolutely nothing gentle about me." She rolled her eyes and huffed and puffed, said something along the lines of: "You think you're all that, don't you?" But the entire time, she was smiling from ear-to-ear and her eyes have that, "I want you to f*ck my brains out" gloss to it.

Later that night, she couldn't keep her hands off me, and we were 5 minutes away from banging on a wet, abandoned roof (just to show you how bad she wanted it) before I had to bail.

(08-03-2016, 11:42 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote: Playful jerk. It means "I'm dismissing your faux-complaints and teases, as if you were my little sister." It's not screaming, "B*TCH I AIN'T NO GENTLEMAN!!!!!" And then proceeding to slap the sh*t out of her.

(08-03-2016, 11:42 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote: Societal conditioning has polarized masculinity into guys that feel like they have to be complete assholes, or manginas that give in to women's requests. The moderates have been wiped out, and yes, if a woman has to choose, she'll most likely go more for the jerk than the mangina. Be the moderate. There's no sense in hanging out in the extremes.

And yes, I do agree with you that everyone should challenge their internal beliefs and question the status quo. I think you need to follow your own advice, though. You're doing exactly what you're accusing everyone else of -- reaching a conclusion and refusing to challenge it, as if you already have all the answers. It almost seems like your questions are designed to prove yourself right, not to challenge what you think you know about the world.

(08-03-2016, 07:54 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote:

(08-01-2016, 11:00 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: That's good.

But what about the other issue? Why doesn't believing in X make X real?

Believing in [X] will make [X] real... if you ACTUALLY, TRULY believe it at your innermost core. Remember my analogy about the computer game and its source code? [X] will have to exist within the source code, and it has to be well-programmed and without bugs, otherwise you'll have malfunctions and crashes at the runtime level.

Same thing here. You can't just "believe" something and it's real. It's like you're dismissing the concept of the subconscious and conscious minds and how they work. The subconscious mind doesn't have a "belief system" in the way that you think it does. The subconscious mind is like the source code of a computer program, it literally executes what it's been programmed to do. Anything you consciously believe is being completely informed by the programming of the subconscious mind.

So, in order for you to get [X] to work, [X] must be ingrained into and fully accepted by the subconscious mind. You can't just walk around saying, "I believe I'm good at [X]" when the subconscious mind doesn't have that programming. That's why so many people here and in the world will never be rich. They've been programmed by society to fear and hate money. We've been taught that having money somehow makes you evil. Thus, your subconscious is going to inform your conscious mind to resist attracting money because your subconscious will never let you become something it fears.

If you want [X] to become true, you'll have to program your subconscious to execute [X]. Subliminals are pretty much the easiest way to accomplish that goal.

(08-03-2016, 01:36 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 12:06 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: I don't think I'm the stubborn one here. On the contrary, my opinions have come from direct experience derived from specifically challenging things.

Had this argument before. My best friend from childhood is an INFP, and we've gone 'round and 'round having this exact same argument. INFP's tend to take a stance of moral and intellectual superiority, using that to discount other people's worldviews. Their argument is that, everyone else is "limited" themselves by not considering every single piece of information, or every philosophy out there. And because of that, other people couldn't have possibly arrived at a logical conclusion because they haven't considered EVERYTHING.

The last time he tried that on me, as well as projecting that I was the one afraid of feeling intellectually inferior, I simply took him aside and said:

"For all your alleged intelligence, what exactly have you done with it and what happenings in your life makes you feel that you can invalidate other people's life experiences?"

(08-03-2016, 01:36 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: I haven't had that argument since. See, the thing is -- you may have read tons and tons of books, but what exactly have you taken from those books and what information are you actually implementing in your life?

(08-03-2016, 01:36 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: The conclusions that guide my life arose from a long, arduous and nuanced process. Years of challenging every system around me, closely observing and monitoring the processes that surround me. Actively seeking out and destroying societal programming that impedes my progress. So, for you to come and say, "you guys just aren't listening," is to completely disregard everyone's experiences as if they're less intelligent because they found their answer and began to pursue it quicker than you.

(08-03-2016, 01:36 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: And it's at that point where I disengage. Not out of anger or malice. Not out of any kind of moral superiority. It's just that, the conversation no longer actually benefits neither one of us. I believe you're engaging in what I call "inauthentic questions." It's where the question isn't an actual inquiry. It's intended to lead the target into an intellectual trap, where you'll finally go, "SEE? I was right all along!" and smile, victorious.

(08-03-2016, 01:36 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: The problem is, it STILL doesn't solve the issues in your own life. Because even if you've pointed out flaws in my worldview, you're STILL suffering. In the end, it's an empty victory. What exactly has been accomplished?

(08-03-2016, 01:36 PM)chaosvrgn Wrote: So, I implore you to quit challenging, choose the path you feel is the most accurate and give it a shot. Instead of debating with us whether you should be an extreme jerk to women, go out on the town, be an extreme jerk to women and journal your results. Hell, run DMSI and do it. It may just be that you're 100% correct and they'll respond kindly. Skip every sub in the future with EPHRA and log your results. Maybe you're on to something there. But the fact of the matter is, challenging for the sake of challenging isn't helpful as you think(my INFP friend calls this "being disruptive," using the term in the same way as economic market disruption). Actionable steps are.

(08-03-2016, 07:54 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote:

(08-01-2016, 11:00 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote: That's good.

But what about the other issue? Why doesn't believing in X make X real?

Believing in [X] will make [X] real... if you ACTUALLY, TRULY believe it at your innermost core. Remember my analogy about the computer game and its source code? [X] will have to exist within the source code, and it has to be well-programmed and without bugs, otherwise you'll have malfunctions and crashes at the runtime level.

Same thing here. You can't just "believe" something and it's real. It's like you're dismissing the concept of the subconscious and conscious minds and how they work. The subconscious mind doesn't have a "belief system" in the way that you think it does. The subconscious mind is like the source code of a computer program, it literally executes what it's been programmed to do. Anything you consciously believe is being completely informed by the programming of the subconscious mind.

So, in order for you to get [X] to work, [X] must be ingrained into and fully accepted by the subconscious mind. You can't just walk around saying, "I believe I'm good at [X]" when the subconscious mind doesn't have that programming. That's why so many people here and in the world will never be rich. They've been programmed by society to fear and hate money. We've been taught that having money somehow makes you evil. Thus, your subconscious is going to inform your conscious mind to resist attracting money because your subconscious will never let you become something it fears.

If you want [X] to become true, you'll have to program your subconscious to execute [X]. Subliminals are pretty much the easiest way to accomplish that goal.

(08-03-2016, 11:04 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 10:57 AM)RTBoss Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 09:15 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 08:40 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote: because gravity is written into the physical universe, but that doesn't somehow negate the concept of your beliefs creating your physical reality. Just means there's limits.

Exactly. And so are a lot of things I'm guessing, like how women go for jerks, for example.

That's only your experience (so far), or your (mis)perception. My very high-value wife (honestly - she's beautiful, healthy, smart, educated, and makes 6-figures!) would never have dated a jerk. When we dated, I treated her like gold. Flowers, candy, holding doors, opened her car door (she never opened her own car door when I was around), pulling out chairs, always paid for everything, gifts on important days, meaningful/sentimental/thoughtful gifts...Chivalry is not dead. She appreciated the hell out of it - we ***** like rabbits.

Isn't it strange how people seem to repeat the same experiences in different forms, and meet the same type of person, over and over? I gotta believe it's some sort of energy-related thing. Anyway, I'm not sure what you need to change to get a different experience in relation to this, but it's something.

No offense, but I don't want a woman like that. Nor do I want to be a man like that. I much prefer it when treating women badly and they can't keep their hands off me.

(08-03-2016, 02:20 PM)RTBoss Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 11:04 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 10:57 AM)RTBoss Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 09:15 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 08:40 AM)chaosvrgn Wrote: because gravity is written into the physical universe, but that doesn't somehow negate the concept of your beliefs creating your physical reality. Just means there's limits.

Exactly. And so are a lot of things I'm guessing, like how women go for jerks, for example.

That's only your experience (so far), or your (mis)perception. My very high-value wife (honestly - she's beautiful, healthy, smart, educated, and makes 6-figures!) would never have dated a jerk. When we dated, I treated her like gold. Flowers, candy, holding doors, opened her car door (she never opened her own car door when I was around), pulling out chairs, always paid for everything, gifts on important days, meaningful/sentimental/thoughtful gifts...Chivalry is not dead. She appreciated the hell out of it - we ***** like rabbits.

Isn't it strange how people seem to repeat the same experiences in different forms, and meet the same type of person, over and over? I gotta believe it's some sort of energy-related thing. Anyway, I'm not sure what you need to change to get a different experience in relation to this, but it's something.

No offense, but I don't want a woman like that. Nor do I want to be a man like that. I much prefer it when treating women badly and they can't keep their hands off me.

Why would I take offense to that? You and I are worlds apart, man.

(08-03-2016, 02:26 PM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 02:20 PM)RTBoss Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 11:04 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 10:57 AM)RTBoss Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 09:15 AM)SargeMaximus Wrote: Exactly. And so are a lot of things I'm guessing, like how women go for jerks, for example.

That's only your experience (so far), or your (mis)perception. My very high-value wife (honestly - she's beautiful, healthy, smart, educated, and makes 6-figures!) would never have dated a jerk. When we dated, I treated her like gold. Flowers, candy, holding doors, opened her car door (she never opened her own car door when I was around), pulling out chairs, always paid for everything, gifts on important days, meaningful/sentimental/thoughtful gifts...Chivalry is not dead. She appreciated the hell out of it - we ***** like rabbits.

Isn't it strange how people seem to repeat the same experiences in different forms, and meet the same type of person, over and over? I gotta believe it's some sort of energy-related thing. Anyway, I'm not sure what you need to change to get a different experience in relation to this, but it's something.

No offense, but I don't want a woman like that. Nor do I want to be a man like that. I much prefer it when treating women badly and they can't keep their hands off me.

Why would I take offense to that? You and I are worlds apart, man.

Some people take offense to such things.

(08-03-2016, 02:18 PM)Dilettante Wrote: Question to chaos.
Does this mean that the subconcious can be worn down by repeatedly saying, x is real?

The reason i ask i take to sub instruction well but not to affirmations.

I always feel affirmations are pointless because i can never trick myself into believing it.

Fascinating discussion we have here gents